ATF Project Gunrunner

maestro pistolero wrote:

I want to see BATF people go to prison for this, and the agency neutered.

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I would like to see that happen too, and let's not forget those responsible parties at DOJ. While on the subject of what I would like to see happen, I'd like to win the state lottery, to which I have now and then bought tickets. Didn't happen though. Likewise, I don't think that any of BATFE management will go to jail, ditto for DOJ people, though they should. What should be, and what is are often markedly different though, as I submit will be the case here.

Oh I'm reasonably certain that some convenient low level lambs, suitable for sacrifice, will be found and offered up. As for those responsible parties, "FOREGDABOUDIT", as the Mafiosi used to say. Yes, it is sad.
 
maestro pistolero said:
I believe the the BATF's behavior rises to criminal conduct. They knowingly put thousands of guns into the hands of criminals, then purposely allowed them to vanish from their control. If that isn't a criminal violation of federal law, then I can't imagine what is.
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At the very least, the ATF agents ...
  • aided and abetted straw buyers,
  • knowingly aided and abetted the acquisition of firearms by foreign nationals,
  • aided and abetted unlawful exports of weapons in violation of 22 CFR Sec. 121-128,
  • conspired to violate laws regarding the export of weapons in violation of 22 CFR Sec. 121-128,
  • knowingly aided and abetted acts of terrorism against Mexican civilians and the government of Mexico,
  • directed others to violate the terms of Title 18 §922 et seq in delivering weapons to straw buyers
I'm sure a good lawyer could make this list at least 4 times as long. The point being that Maestro is correct. Laws were willfully ignored, bent, folded, stapled and mutilated to put guns into Mexico.

publius42 said:
Holder said in May that he learned of the operation a few weeks ago. Being generous, he may have meant March.
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IIRC he also said he first heard about it "in the media"... if that's true, he has less credibility than my dog trying to pretend that's not his puddle on the den floor.

I want to see BATF people go to prison for this, and the agency neutered.
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Be careful what you wish for...

The question is whether to defund and disband ATF, disbursing it's power and authority
to other agencies or keeping ATF on a tight leash. I prefer the latter.

Suggested changes...
  • Restructure BATFE into a purely investigative agency.
  • No authority to make actual arrests¹
  • No authority to close a business or revoke any license or permit.²
  • Relies on US Attorneys office to direct other agencies, obtain warrants.
  • Relies on the use of other federal agencies for law enforcement
  • Reclassify personnel as (a)Inspectors, (b)Agents or (c)Technicians.
  • Inspectors verify licenses, records keeping, security requirements, etc. and document results.
  • Agents build cases on information from Inspectors and technicians, conduct follow-up investigations, compile leads and other information. Presents case to US Attorney for enforcement or prosecution.
  • Technicians analyze and review evidence materials (e.g. explosives residue, chemical traces, functional reviews, etc.) and provide their reports to both an Agent and any requesting agency (local LE, FBI, DHS, etc.)

You get the idea. ATF has proven itself incapable of performing a bona fide law enforcement function over the last 39 years. It has proven itself to trample civil rights, commit abuses of authority, engage in entrapment, falsify records and routinely commit perjury. Now it has engaged in conduct that, had it been directed against the US, Germany or Israel could have been classified as "acts of terrorism" or "acts of war". It could well be classified as a "terrorist organization" under our own rules governing such.

Stripping ATF down and making it an investigative agency still allows them to conduct investigations, even undercover operations. But now it has to document and present cases to a U.S. Attorney for review prior to any law enforcement action or prosecution. That means the AUSA in charge has to ensure ATF's investigations are performed to "best practices" standards and are conducted within the law.

Simply transferring ATF's authority to the FBI or DHS would likely mean transferring or rehiring many of the same "bad apples" under a new name. Worse, it could result in combining information with these other agencies in ways that are undesireable.³


¹ except for crimes committed in an agent's presence.
² License/permit revocation authority passes to US Attorney's office
³ Such as DHS/Customs/ICE flagging your passport as a gun owner for closer inspection
 
Quote:
I want to see BATF people go to prison for this, and the agency neutered.
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Be careful what you wish for...

The question is whether to defund and disband ATF, disbursing it's power and authority
to other agencies or keeping ATF on a tight leash. I prefer the latter.
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I do, too. Neutered feels like the right word for this.
 
jimpeel said:
They made these statements that 90% of all firearms traced to Mexico were from the United States. When that claim was found to be patently false, the word went out to make it so.
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They are down to claiming it is 70% now, and if you read carefully, it is only the ones submitted for tracing. They submitted guns for tracing if they suspected they were of US origin, so it looks like the Mexicans are able to correctly identify a US gun 90%, oops we meant 70%, of the time. This means that we need more gun control, but is completely unrelated to the ATF funneling guns to Mexico, according to noted US Senators.

MEXICO CITY -- About 70 percent of the guns seized in Mexico and submitted to a U.S. gun-tracing program came from the United States, according to a report released by three U.S. senators Monday.

...

The report, issued by Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California and two other senators, recommended background checks for sales at gun shows, a ban on the import of nonsporting weapons and the reinstatement of the assault weapons ban in force in the United States until 2004.
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They are down to claiming it is 70% now, and if you read carefully, it is only the ones submitted for tracing. They submitted guns for tracing if they suspected they were of US origin, so it looks like the Mexicans are able to correctly identify a US gun 90%, oops we meant 70%, of the time.
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Even if the number was 90 percent, the number represents only those guns submitted to the U.S. for trace, which was a very small percentage of the overall number of crime guns recovered in Mexico by Mexican authorities. They cherry picked -- they worked with the U.S. and submitted only those guns they were certain could and would be traced to the U.S. -- and out of that cherry picked sampling they could still only trace 70 percent. They way the trace was set up, it should have been 100 percent.

So Fast and Furious was created as a way of ensuring that the Mexicans would recover more crime guns that could definitely and conclusively be traced to the United States. Anyone who believes the BATFE thought these guns would in any way lead them (or the Mexican authorities) all the way up the food chain to cartel leaders is ingesting hallucinogenic mold spores. Fast and Furious is the program Obama was hinting at when he promised sarah Brady that his people were working on "something" he couldn't discuss.
 
Fast and Furious is the program Obama was hinting at when he promised sarah Brady that his people were working on "something" he couldn't discuss.
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Can you confirm this with a date in conjunction to possibly a video? I would love to be able to infer from the timing, location and body language, etc...what he meant by that comment.
 
One more thing, and an obvious one at that...

Whether the claimed figure is 90% or 70% or whatever, and the phrase "of the submitted guns" is used, doesn't that only apply to those guns that are not marked "made in USA"?

Any idiot (and we have plenty on both sides of the border, in and out of govt service) can tell that a gun marked "made in USA" comes from the United States!

And, all the trace can tell us for certain is that the guns were made in the US. In general, anyway. Now, specific guns, might be able to be traced to the US as the last place they were legally sold, but that doesn't guarantee the last place they were before entering Mexico was the USA.

The Fast & Furious gun, yes, they were traced from point of sale to the border, basically, and lost after that, until they turn up again, at a murder scene or in a siezure.

There's a buttload of M16s in Mexico, and for certain, those guns will be "traced" to the USA. And reported as such. What the antis will convieniently leave out is that the guns were supplied by the US Govt!

Apparently, the Fast & Furious guns were too!;)
 
There's a buttload of M16s in Mexico, and for certain, those guns will be "traced" to the USA. And reported as such. What the antis will convieniently leave out is that the guns were supplied by the US Govt!
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In a similar vein, I wond how many firearms were legally supplied to the Mexican government only to "mysteriously" wind up in the hands of drug cartels. As I've said before, I think Mexico should put their own house in order before lecturing us about our gun laws.

Honestly, part of me wonders if the whole "crime guns in Mexico" issue isn't just a ruse anyway. It seems to me that the root of the problem is discontent over the drug trafficing and other crime coming across the border from Mexico. The Mexican government certainly doesn't seem overly inclined to do anything about it and a good number of politicians in the U.S. aren't either. I can't help but wonder if, with gun control being so politically unpopular in the last 10-15 years, it's just a convenient issue to distract the public from the real problem. No one will have to actually do anything besides blame someone else since new gun control legislation has about the same chance as a snowball in Hades of passing.
 
Webleymkv said:
In a similar vein, I wond how many firearms were legally supplied to the Mexican government only to "mysteriously" wind up in the hands of drug cartels. As I've said before, I think Mexico should put their own house in order before lecturing us about our gun laws.
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In fact, many of the arms (not limited to just firearms or "small arms") are known to have been supplied by the U.S. government to the governments of a couple of Central American countries other than Mexico a decade or more ago. But, even though these were known to have originated in the U.S., they weren't included in the trace data because they are military weaponry and can't be used to support the claim that they were sold by U.S. gun shops to straw buyers.
 
There's a buttload of M16s in Mexico, and for certain, those guns will be "traced" to the USA
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Yep, and how did those end up in circulation?

Gang members signed up for the Mexican army, then absconded with them. That's how. It's a well known practice. There's no way we could have stopped that. I heard that those number somewhere around 250,000.
 
From David Hardy, http://armsandthelaw.com/

"Sen. Grassley says he has the figures. The wording of his release isn't entirely clear, but it seems to be referring to 24% of guns that the Mexican government asks to be traced (which are minority of its crime guns, and certainly disproportionately those of American make). And of course a gun sold by an FFL to a honest person, and years later stolen and smuggled out, would count as a gun traced to that dealer even though his transaction was 100% proper.

So the actual percent of Mexican crime guns traced to American FFLs is likely far less than 24%, and a good portion of that may be stolen. The actual percentages are a far cry from the Administration's claims of 80-90%. But for some reason I doubt you'll read this in WaPo or the NY Times anytime soon..."

Reference: http://grassley.senate.gov/about/Fo...TF-Flawed-Gun-Strategy.cfm#.Tg5gd1J-1Fw.email

The relevant number is 24% and that is of traces requested, not arms recovered, and traces overwhelmingly involve US made firearms. DiFi has no idea what she is really talking about but that is a long way from unusual, especially about firearms of any sort anywhere.
 
maestro pistolero - neutered is a good term for it. I just wanted to make the distinction between limiting ATF's authority and spreading it's duties to other agencies...which could end up almost as bad (few things could be worse than ATF, IMO).

GoOfY-FoOt said:
Can you confirm this with a date in conjunction to possibly a video? I would love to be able to infer from the timing, location and body language, etc...what he meant by that comment.
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Confirmation is just a step away. The source is a Washington Post article that quotes Sarah Brady about her March 30 visit to the White House. She quotes Obama as saying that gun control is very much on his agenda and that the administraton was "working on a few things under the radar." The article was a fluff-piece for Obama's regulatory whiz-kid, Steve Croley and this was just an "innocent" paragraph towards the end.

See the WaPo article here

In Re: 90% statistic.
The original stat was shot down quickly by public commentators (including thousands of bloggers). That was March of 2009. Not too surprisingly, the origins of "Fast and Furious" can be traced to approximately this same timeframe. Coincidence? (old adage: There are no coincidences in Washington).

Truth: Back then, the seized gun count was just under 30,000 (call it 29,000 and some change). Publicly, the ATF said that "6,000" guns were submitted for tracing and about 5,400 were "sourced" to the USA. Sure, this is not rocket science. Mexico sorted the guns stamped "MADE IN USA" and those with U.S. import markings into a separate pile and asked ATF to trace them. This resulted in "90% of the submitted guns being traced to the USA". Duh!

What was more interesting (and I can't find the source) was that a significant portion of those traced guns (about 40% IIRC) were traced to two U.S. "foreign aid" programs. One is the military assistance program where we supply guns to Mexico's military. The other is called the "commercial sales" program, where commerical guns are sold to "authorized" Mexican businesses -- armored car companies, security companies, power and pharmacuetical companies,etc. The bottom line was that only about 7% came from border gun shops.

This is just like the focus Congress had on Assault Weapons. Instead of focusing on the significant problem, let's spend our resources on 2% of the problem. Here everyone is talking border gunshops that are the source in only 7% of the cases. Yeah, that's being really effective. :rolleyes:

Honestly, part of me wonders if the whole "crime guns in Mexico" issue isn't just a ruse anyway. It seems to me that the root of the problem is discontent over the drug trafficing and other crime coming across the border from Mexico. The Mexican government certainly doesn't seem overly inclined to do anything about it and a good number of politicians in the U.S. aren't either. I can't help but wonder if, with gun control being so politically unpopular in the last 10-15 years, it's just a convenient issue to distract the public from the real problem. No one will have to actually do anything besides blame someone else since new gun control legislation has about the same chance as a snowball in Hades of passing.
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It could also be that U.S. authorities are letting the situation escalate while flailing about just enough to contain it until the citizenry starts clamoring for them to "do something" about it.

Of course, such clamoring will start just before the next election and I would not be surprised to see Brady/VPC/Bloomberg priming the pump with articles and editorials in the border state newspapers. I know that's cynical of me... :p
 
It could also be that U.S. authorities are letting the situation escalate while flailing about just enough to contain it until the citizenry starts clamoring for them to "do something" about it.

Of course, such clamoring will start just before the next election and I would not be surprised to see Brady/VPC/Bloomberg priming the pump with articles and editorials in the border state newspapers. I know that's cynical of me...
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While plausible, I find it unlikely that they would use this rather than any other number of incidents in not-too-distant history such as the D.C. Sniper, the Virginia Tech Shooting, or the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. Those incidents would, in the 80's and early 90's, have been disasterous for gun owners but despite the howling of the Bradys and other usual suspects the gun issue was kind of swept under the rug. It seems to me that the '94 AWB was kind ot the peak of gun control, people figured out that it doesn't work and public support has pretty much shriveled and died.

Regardless of what the ulitmate goal was, it seems as though their method has blown up in their face.
 
The relevant number is 24% and that is of traces requested, not arms recovered, and traces overwhelmingly involve US made firearms.
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You guys do know that a trace can be initiated for any number of reasons, right? Just because a gun is being traced doesn't mean there's blood on it. It could have been reported lost, then traced when found. The manufacturer could have found an error on their books, then reported it to the ATF for flagging. The list goes on.

Confirmation is just a step away. The source is a Washington Post article that quotes Sarah Brady about her March 30 visit to the White House.
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Sarah Brady has said many things that stretch the truth. So has the Washington Post. I worry about neither.
 
They say the world changed on Sept 11...

It didn't. But a number of people did have their eyes opened.

It seems to me that the '94 AWB was kind ot the peak of gun control, people figured out that it doesn't work and public support has pretty much shriveled and died.
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The terrorist attacks, done without guns, killing thousands that Sept day began the massive erosion that support for US gun control has seen in the past decade.

People who had just gone along, or even supported gun control, because "it was just common sense" to reduce violence, suddenly saw how much, and how badly they had been lied to. Some of them even realized that the gun control laws might keep them from getting a gun when they needed it!

Even Michael Moore, the so called documentary film maker, and darling of the anti-gunners, just after 9/11 publically said how wrong he had been going after guns, when people with box cutters could wreak such havoc. I believe he was in shock, and some actual honesty slipped out, as I think he has recanted that statement since.

The fact is lots of people saw that US gun laws and gun owners were NOT the terrible problem they had been led to believe they were. Support in general for gun control, and support for the Brady group in particular has been slipping ever since.
 
It just hit me.

I'm sometimes slow on the uptake. But the obvious just hit me.

DOJ conceived Operation Fast and Furious in December 2009.FN1. The Obama administration announced its support for the U.N. Small Arms Treaty in May 2010.FN2. Obviously, it would take at least several months for Operation Fast and Furious to bear fruit (if it worked as intended). Could it be possible Fast and Furious was developed in preparation for and in support of the the Small Arms Treaty? Just wondering.

FN1 - Joint Staff Report, p. 4. http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/ATF_Report.pdf

FN2 - "The UN Gun Grabber," The Washington Times, May 27, 2010. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/27/the-un-gun-grabber/
 
To me it's speculation - just as I myself speculate that President Obama's comments to Sarah Brady that the administration was working on the gun control issue - but in a low-key manner, referenced Fast and Furious.

The administration has stonewalled as much or more than any administration in history, and has been as uncooperative as any administration in history. When they engage in stonewalling, hyper-redacting of documents, and reprisals against those who tell the truth, they invite open speculation of the kind that you propose and the kind that I engage in myself.

I'm looking at what you're saying and I say "Hey ya, it makes sense ot me."
 
The administration at this point does not want to touch the gun issue in 2011/2012 with an election coming up.

Bill Clinton has probably warned him to leave that alone.

that response was the biggest bunch of hot air....lol

translation: We are actually doing nothing but we replied to let you knew we know you are concerned so it would make it look like we really care and you will vote for us.
 
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