ATF Project Gunrunner

jimpeel, that is an excellent piece of commentary. Thanks for taking the time to make it, regardless of whether it ever sees the light of day in the Washington Post. It looks like it is going down pretty much like we expected. Paul Helmke has written an article that gives a preview of his testimony today and the Washington Post is running an article that purports to be news; but is actually the same content as their earlier editorial. The typical lefty blogs are running with this as well. Pointing out that the existing gun laws were both violated by ATF and then not prosecuted by AUSA Emory Hurley is going to be an important part of challenging this attempt to change the narrative from "ATF breaking the law" to "We need more laws for ATF to break."

The really ironic thing is that the Cummings hearing are apparently relying heavily on Agent Forcelli's testimony without noting the part about AUSA Hurley declining to prosecute cases that were later successfully prosecuted by the Arizona AG. Forcelli called the straw purchasing laws "toothless"; but they aren't at all toothless at the federal level - it is only at the state level where they are weak - and Forcelli was forced to go to the state level because Hurley, who was neck deep in Fast and Furious, refused to prosecute many of the straw purchasers implicated under the stricter federal laws.

Suprisingly, not a lot of traditional news outlets biting on the Cummings hearing so far, it seems more are reporting on President Obama's most recent denial that he knew or authorized such an operation. Once again, a subtle but telling shift from the White House in the denials:

"My attorney general has made clear that he certainly would not have ordered gun running to be able to pass through into Mexico."

Apparently the President is no longer comfortable making blanket claims about what AG Holder knew or didn't know and is now taking the more cautious approach of reporting on what AG Holder has told them. Which given that AG Holder responded to a letter inquiring about Gunwalker from Rep. Issa in February and then in May testified that he had only known about the operation for a few weeks maybe, is probably a smart move for the White House to take.
 
There was a bigger shift in the Obama statement, BR.

In March he said this:

In response, the president said neither he nor Attorney General Eric Holder approved the operation.

"There may be a situation here which a serious mistake was made and if that's the case then we'll find out and well hold somebody accountable," he added.

Yesterday he said this:

Mr. Obama answered, "My attorney general has made clear that he certainly would not have ordered gun running to be able to pass through into Mexico. ... I'm not going to comment on -- a on a current investigation. I've made very clear my views that that would not be an appropriate step by the ATF, and we've got to find out how that happened."

Unless I missed it, Obama has not admitted that the gunwalking happened until yesterday, only that it "may" have happened.
 
It's no longer a question of did they -- because there is evidence and testimony that they did! We know that guns were let "walk" and that the ATF essentially aided and abetted straw-man purchases, export law violations, gun possession laws, ad nauseum.

I think it's notable that Obama has stopped saying he didn't authorize it or know about it. His statement is carefully worded "Holder would not order.." Yes, but might he pass along "by order of the President..."?

The question now is who authorized the ATF to let them walk. And it's been six months since that question has been asked (4 months if you're charitable). And still, ATF/DOJ cannot or will not provide a name. One has to ask why.

Imagine if you were a senior director in a business with 8-10 direct reports and up to 200 subordinates. If your boss or CEO demanded to know who authorized some bone-headed program, would he give you six months to find out? You might get 3 days.

Issa should assign a staffer to review equipment purchases and service documents for DOJ. I'll bet at least one shredder has needed to be replaced or serviced in the last few months.
 
Last edited:
jimpeel, that is an excellent piece of commentary. Thanks for taking the time to make it, regardless of whether it ever sees the light of day in the Washington Post.

I checked and they did not post any letters to the Editor on that editorial. I'm sure they must have gotten more than just a few comments.
 
BillCA said:
I think it's notable that Obama has stopped saying he didn't authorize it or know about it. His statement is carefully worded "Holder would not order.." Yes, but might he pass along "by order of the President..."?
These are words coming from a politician's office. You can be assured that the words used were carefully chosen to be as truthful as they thought they could get away with, consistent with providing the maximum amount of misdirection and disinformation they thought they could get away with.

"Holder would not order.." is back peddling from previous "Holder did not know about" and "Holder did not authorize" statements. The official line has now devolved to "Holder would not order." Which, if you read between the lines, does NOT say that Holder did not know about, and it does NOT say that Holder did not authorize some underling's brilliant scheme. Granting authorization to carry out a suggestion is not the same thing as giving an order.
 
Well first of all - I don't think the BATFE has a clear mission statement or clear idea of what the main purpose, duties and responsibilities of the agency are.

But, whatever ill defined mission they have, they definitely strayed from it when they took a foray into politics and crafted an operation that was designed to give official credibility to gun control claims and bolster arguments for stricter gun control.

Obama was behind it and it is a gross abuse of executive power to use a U.S. agency to craft and carry out a covert operation with the main purpose of creating the impetus to restrict and constrain American's constitutions rights.
 
As much as I dislike and distrust Obama, I don't know that this was his idea. We tend to be insulated from knowing just how many "players" there are in the shadows of our government, and how those players may actively influence and affect our lives. The Prez has a lot on his plate (irrespective of how well or how poorly we think he's handling it). I am prepared to accept that this was not Barry's brainchild. But I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suppose that some unelected, unappointed, liberal Democratic apparatchik might easily have dreamed up this operation as a way of promoting the administration's agenda to discredit gun ownership and to eviscerate the 2nd Amendment. So this genius talks to some other equally unelected, unappointed, unaccountable apparatchiks, one of them takes it down the street to some upper-mid-level honcho in BATFE, and from there things start snowballing rapidly downhill.

I don't think Barry ordered it. I don't think Holder ordered it. I do think Holder authorized it, and I do think both he (and probably Obama) knew about it pretty much from the outset. I think the important thing for us to learn/remember from this is that there are a great many hidden layers within our government, and they generally do not function to our benefit. Many of them, in fact, are there largely for no reason other than to provide plausible deniability.
 
I don't think President Obama hatched the plan - not the way like for instance Nixon would actually think things up himself.

But Obama did have a conversation with Sarah Brady where he assured her that things were being done to re-intorduce stricter gun laws again, I'm paraphrasing but he insuniated that things had to be done quietly, to try accomplish things under the radar, or covertly.

I don't think that ties him strongly and directly with Gun Runner, but my gut feeling is, he knew about it, he was waiting for Gun Runner to put a huge volume of U.S. Guns into the hands of Mexican criminals, he was also waiting for some official study from BATFE to come out documenting the sheer numer and percentage of U.S. guns, and that would be the launchin point for stricter legislation. He was basically telling Sarah Brady to be patient IMO...
 
Aguila Blanca said:
I am prepared to accept that this was not Barry's brainchild. But I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suppose that some unelected, unappointed, liberal Democratic apparatchik might easily have dreamed up this operation as a way of promoting the administration's agenda to discredit gun ownership and to eviscerate the 2nd Amendment. So this genius talks to some other equally unelected, unappointed, unaccountable apparatchiks, one of them takes it down the street to some upper-mid-level honcho in BATFE, and from there things start snowballing rapidly downhill.

I don't think Barry ordered it. I don't think Holder ordered it. I do think Holder authorized it, and I do think both he (and probably Obama) knew about it pretty much from the outset. I think the important thing for us to learn/remember from this is that there are a great many hidden layers within our government, and they generally do not function to our benefit. Many of them, in fact, are there largely for no reason other than to provide plausible deniability.

Aguila Blanca (aka white water :cool:)

I don't think, at this point, it matters one whit who was the "brainchild" or "brain trust" that hatched this felony stupid plan, unless it was the POTUS or a cabinet level position.

The more important point is at what level was the plan approved to begin execution and was the approver/authorizer given all the details of the plan?

We can envision that unnamed, unelected GS-5 bureaucrat who takes some initiative to create the plan and pass it along through to someone who can "get the ball rolling". We can also envision some mid-to-high level officials "packaging" the plan for Holder (or deputy AG Ogden) without the sordid little details -- like losing track of the guns. Or simply saying they intend to cooperate with Mexico... but leaving out precisely when that might happen. We can see how such a plan might be endorsed with the belief it will be implemented according to agency policy and best practices.

Except for a few niggling little details in this case.

From what I've read, the jurisdictions on border cases requires inter-agency cooperation and teamwork (something the ATF also does poorly). Operations along the border use EPIC (El Paso Intelligence Center) with multiple agency members only steps away. Much of the work along the border is done under the OCDETF (organized crime drug enforcement task force) oversight, which combines DOJ and DHS resources (ICE, Customs/BP, USCG, etc). In addition, incidents along the border are reported to the State Department to notify them of potential diplomatic issues. Operations targeting Mexican nationals or US citizens involved in criminal activity within Mexico are also summarized for State.

It's possible that these agencies were "kept in the dark" about ATF's operation, but not plausible. Not with the jurisdictional turf wars each agency plays (each wants the credit for any major case). Plus, the State Dept. would be in the "need to know" category about any operation attempting to break the drug cartels or their supply chain(s).

It seems almost inconceivable that this operation could be contained entirely within the mid-level bureaucratic layers of DOJ, DHS and State. Government bureaucrats don't take a dump without a plan that is approved by at least one or two layers higher up. And a plan who's prima facie presentation looks good does not excuse agency heads from doing their due diligence by asking questions or trying to poke holes in the plan.

The important thing here is that AG Holder is the holder of the bag. It's his job to know what kinds of operations are going on within his agency and his responsibility that every agency and department adheres to the constitution and US laws.
 
What is pathetic is the minority attempting to put a pro-gun control spin on a case that is definitively about the circumvention of existing gun laws for reasons no-one has even attempted to explain.

I believe the the BATF's behavior rises to criminal conduct. They knowingly put thousands * of guns into the hands of criminals, then purposely allowed them to vanish from their control. If that isn't a criminal violation of federal law, then I can't imagine what is.

As far as I am aware, there is no LE exemption for arming criminals and letting them walk away to plan their next murder.

(+/- 1700 guns just from this program. It's probably a fair assumption that there are at least some other more isolated instances guns getting walked by this agency.)
 
Holder said in May that he learned of the operation a few weeks ago. Being generous, he may have meant March.

Grassley's first letter to him on the subject was in the beginning of February.

Taking him at his word, I'd say that ignoring mail from a US Senator for over a month is malfeasance. His word does not strike me as particularly credible in this case.
 
The minority whitewash report on Gun Runner Fast and Furious Gunwalking begins:

On March 16, 2011, Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell E. Issa launched an investigation into allegations that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), as part of an effort known as Operation Fast and Furious, failed to properly monitor hundreds of firearms acquired by suspected straw purchasers and destined for drug cartels in Mexico.

You first have to try in order to fail, and agents were ordered not to try to track the guns. That is all that the minority report has to say about the actual gunwalking. The rest of it is a gun control wish list.

The NY Times said:


This week Mr. Issa said he believed that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. lied when he testified to the Senate Judiciary Committee in May that he had learned just weeks earlier about the operation, which was begun in 2009 in the Phoenix office of the A.T.F. Asked about the issue at a news conference on Wednesday, President Obama said he believed Mr. Holder.

Grassley sent his first letter to Holder about this scandal back on January 31st, but Holder first heard of it "a few weeks ago" when he testilied in May? He should keep better track of developing scandals within his department and begin opening his mail from US Senators, if he is telling the truth.
 
Maestro Pistolero said:
What is pathetic is the minority attempting to put a pro-gun control spin on a case that is definitively about the circumvention of existing gun laws for reasons no-one has even attempted to explain.

I believe the the BATF's behavior rises to criminal conduct. They knowingly put thousands * of guns into the hands of criminals, then purposely allowed them to vanish from their control. If that isn't a criminal violation of federal law, then I can't imagine what is.
I agree completely. I also agree with BillCA. My point was that we need to look very closely at how the administration is parsing their language now that the kitty cat is out of the bag. Before this sordid affair meanders to a conclusion (or simply fades from memory), I suspect there will be a whole lot more statements of the "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" type from various corners of the Obamanation.
 
I want to see BATF people go to prison for this, and the agency neutered.
If history of past performances holds true, I expect to see promotions for those involved and perhaps new weapons legislation come to the forefront... but then again, I've become somewhat cynical when it comes to this issue (2nd/RKBA/BATF) over the years. What with ATF whistleblower Cefalu terminated already and only one or two fatal casualities to date... AND a Presidential Election coming up soon. Never let a good crisis go to waste...

...and all that transparency stuff?
My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government. We will work together to ensure the public trust and establish a system of transparency, public participation, and collaboration. Openness will strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness in Government.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/TransparencyandOpenGovernment/
Call me a cynic, but... I think openess, efficiency and effectiveness in Government must mean different things to different people. Oh wait a minute, Chicago... Gov't... :rolleyes: nevermind. Ignore the above. I'll simply say, this ain't Chicago, and...

RIP BPA Terry
 
What is pathetic is the minority attempting to put a pro-gun control spin on a case that is definitively about the circumvention of existing gun laws for reasons no-one has even attempted to explain.

That was the goal in the first place. They made these statements that 90% of all firearms traced to Mexico were from the United States. When that claim was found to be patently false, the word went out to make it so. The only way to do this was to feed the dragon, hence "Operation Gunrunner" and "Fast and Furious" were born.

The goal is to create animus for firearms among the American populace to cause an outcry for gun control. They have now been caught and their only defense is "Who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
 
From the "minority whitewash" report linked by publius42:
Special Agent Canino said:
A trafficking statute would be helpful, too. You know, our agency is, I don’t know what the word is, misunderstood, you know.
The ATF is misunderstood?!? Really?!? :mad:

It's not hard to understand. They wanted more funding and more power, and they broke the law to get it.
 
Accessory to Murder In First Degree

That is what the ATF is, that is why they should be disbanded. That is what they will continue doing untill this country is put right!
 
Back
Top