ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
A year and a half ago, the website Judicial Watch made an FOIA request for all the documents the DOJ had withheld. Nothing came of it, so they filed a lawsuit in September of 2012.
Earlier this month, U.S. District Court Judge John D. Bates ruled that the DOJ must provide a Vaughn index of the relevant documents.
The Supreme Court established the concept of the Vaughn index in Vaughn v. Rosen. An agency that wishes to withhold information must provide a detailed index and description of the information withheld, state the statutory exemption claimed, and explain how disclosure would damage the interests protected by the claimed exemption.
Does this mean we'll get all the answers? No, but it will provide us with some of them.
Earlier this month, U.S. District Court Judge John D. Bates ruled that the DOJ must provide a Vaughn index of the relevant documents.
The Supreme Court established the concept of the Vaughn index in Vaughn v. Rosen. An agency that wishes to withhold information must provide a detailed index and description of the information withheld, state the statutory exemption claimed, and explain how disclosure would damage the interests protected by the claimed exemption.
Does this mean we'll get all the answers? No, but it will provide us with some of them.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
More likely we'll get more lies, delays, and obfuscation.Tom Servo said:
Re this court order mentioned somewhere in this discussion, or in a lead in, the following comes to mind.
John Q. and or Jane F. citizen fails to obey one of these court orders, there is one such involved, no? Off to jail with them, correct or at least a possibility.
So what happens when people in government, otherwise "the people's employees", at the risk of sounding really dumb fail to follow through on a court order, was there such a thing here? The miscreant, to stay within the bounds of polite conversation, carries on undaunted.
I may be dumb as blazes, naive too but it strikes me that there is one hell of a problem here.
John Q. and or Jane F. citizen fails to obey one of these court orders, there is one such involved, no? Off to jail with them, correct or at least a possibility.
So what happens when people in government, otherwise "the people's employees", at the risk of sounding really dumb fail to follow through on a court order, was there such a thing here? The miscreant, to stay within the bounds of polite conversation, carries on undaunted.
I may be dumb as blazes, naive too but it strikes me that there is one hell of a problem here.
It's just the system of checks and balances being corroded. It was understood at the beginning that they would degrade unless actively serviced by a freedom loving electorate. Rather than refinish these rusted pillars, we've been demanding pols attack them with axes for a good while, now, so that the machinery above could 'move faster' (downward 
)
TCB
)TCB
It's pretty clear to me he's (Issa) used F&F as a means to promote his own career. I really don't think he's all that interested in the truth. He'll settle for something far less if he can advance his own ends.
So noted one poster. Maybe so, but does that excuse others in The Congress (House and Senate) who stand about, mute is seems,not the remotest sign of concern let alone of outrage over the ongoing antics/abuses of the BATFE.
Mr. Issa is likely something less than clean of motive, granted. Seems to me that the following question remains, that being said. What gives with the rest of The Congress, those who carry water for that rampant bureaucracy, the BATFE.
So noted one poster. Maybe so, but does that excuse others in The Congress (House and Senate) who stand about, mute is seems,not the remotest sign of concern let alone of outrage over the ongoing antics/abuses of the BATFE.
Mr. Issa is likely something less than clean of motive, granted. Seems to me that the following question remains, that being said. What gives with the rest of The Congress, those who carry water for that rampant bureaucracy, the BATFE.
I can. They went for the political brass ring and tried to take Holder down.
Had they set their sights lower and started with the Phoenix field division, they might have gotten answers. They also might have been able to attain dismissals and prosecutions for the people who carried out the operation.
But nooooo...they had to jump straight to the top, and Holder was able to insulate himself. The end result was a full stop to the investigation, with no meaningful action taken.
The following has likely been mentioned before however it strikes me as appropriate for repeat, though perhaps it is rather "shop worn" today.
Operation Fast and Furious has been covered up by Obama et al, giant fox holes having been dug for all that needed them, I suspect that the total thereof would be significant. In any event,The Fix Is In, and it is unlikely that anyone worthy of/deserving punishment will ever receive same.
The foregoing strikes me as more than a little sad, but then I might be slow to learn, likely I am, either that or naive, despite having lived a fairly long life, a relatively unsheltered one at that.
One thing/question remains in my mind, possibly a dumb one, but here it is, for whatever it might be worth. How can I pull so outrageous a stunt, and get away with it? Would "friends in high places" be a helpful starting point?
Operation Fast and Furious has been covered up by Obama et al, giant fox holes having been dug for all that needed them, I suspect that the total thereof would be significant. In any event,The Fix Is In, and it is unlikely that anyone worthy of/deserving punishment will ever receive same.
The foregoing strikes me as more than a little sad, but then I might be slow to learn, likely I am, either that or naive, despite having lived a fairly long life, a relatively unsheltered one at that.
One thing/question remains in my mind, possibly a dumb one, but here it is, for whatever it might be worth. How can I pull so outrageous a stunt, and get away with it? Would "friends in high places" be a helpful starting point?
g.willikers
New member
Since this whole fiasco has dragged on for so long, is it possible that it has attracted more attention and caused more lack of respect for the administration, than it would have, otherwise??
Based on an article on foxnews.com here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...d-to-congress-judge-rules/?intcmp=latestnews#
U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson has ordered the Justic Dept to turn over to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee a list of documents related to Fast & Furious.
Not the documents themselves, but a list of them.
Is the DOJ's amour stating to fail? Could we actually gain some traction here?
U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson has ordered the Justic Dept to turn over to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee a list of documents related to Fast & Furious.
Not the documents themselves, but a list of them.
Is the DOJ's amour stating to fail? Could we actually gain some traction here?
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
That is actually the normal course of action when you claim you are withholding production of information due to legal privilege. You are supposed to produce a log showing what documents you are withholding and what privilege applies.
It is a sad statement on DOJ that they had to have a judge order them to take even that basic step after over a year of foot dragging.
Two men have been charged with Bryan Terry's murder and have been extradited for trial.
Despite the fact that the weapons they used were from the Fast & Furious operation, government prosecutors have asked that it not be mentioned. Judge David Bury has agreed, and he has issued a gag order prohibiting mention of it.
In fact, prosecutors are trying to disqualify any juror who confirms they've even heard of F&F.
Despite the fact that the weapons they used were from the Fast & Furious operation, government prosecutors have asked that it not be mentioned. Judge David Bury has agreed, and he has issued a gag order prohibiting mention of it.
In fact, prosecutors are trying to disqualify any juror who confirms they've even heard of F&F.
If you've ever served on the jury in a criminal trial, everyone swears to tell the truth and then spends the entire trial bending, slanting and distorting the truth as far as they can without actually lying. A great deal of time is also spent deciding what evidence can or can't be presented in front of the jury.
In this case I suspect that since this is a murder trial the fact that the guns were supplied via Fast & Furious may be true, but it's been deemed irrelevant. How the defendants got the weapons is not nearly as important as what they did with them and involving F&F would only serve as a huge distraction. Remember it's not an F&F trial, it's a murder trial.
kilimanjaro
New member
I can easily picture a juror or two hanging a jury because they believe Eric Holder should be on trial and not the person who fired the weapon. It's really not germane to the trial and rightly should be excluded.
Having said that, I'm still waiting for the indictments for the F&F actors to be laid down : aiding and abetting gun trafficking (2000 counts), conspiracy charges, depraved indifference to human life, complicity in murder, complicity in murder of a federal officer, obstruction of justice, violation of the public trust, etc., etc., the list is a long one.
No one can tell me these parties did not know for a fact that allowing weapons to be delivered to members of the planet's most violent drug cartels would not have resulted in the deaths of others. They knew wrongful deaths would occur and kept on delivering.
We can hope for an administration in 2016 that will arrest everyone involved, but don't hold your breath.
Having said that, I'm still waiting for the indictments for the F&F actors to be laid down : aiding and abetting gun trafficking (2000 counts), conspiracy charges, depraved indifference to human life, complicity in murder, complicity in murder of a federal officer, obstruction of justice, violation of the public trust, etc., etc., the list is a long one.
No one can tell me these parties did not know for a fact that allowing weapons to be delivered to members of the planet's most violent drug cartels would not have resulted in the deaths of others. They knew wrongful deaths would occur and kept on delivering.
We can hope for an administration in 2016 that will arrest everyone involved, but don't hold your breath.