ATF at Gunshows....

IIRC... (that's always a gamble)... when various agencies were consolidated into DHS under Bush, the ATF was split into two or three components and dispersed to different departments. Regulation & Tax collection of Alcohol, Tobacco and -maybe- firearms stamps went to treasury or became part of IRS or something and the enforcement section of firearms, explosives and door-kickers went to DHS or some LE sub component.

Could be all wrong but that's how I remember it, so when you pay your tax stamp, it probably is to the regulation side. I don't know how they could be split into two different department groups and still use the same letterhead but that is what it sounds like.
 
Although people tend to compare the ATF to 1984's big brother I tend to think they have tables at shows to foster good will. If they are also out undercover, they are doing their job. If you are not breaking the law then it is not of any consequence what they are doing. If someone sketchy approaches you and you are not sure if that transaction would be within the law go over to the ATF table and have them clear it up for you.

Now before you jump all over me I do think they have perpetrated some monumental failures that fall well outside the bounds of the law, F&F for example. I think that kinds of thing can be put on the leadership at the highest levels not the people in the trenches trying to do a job and follow orders.
 
I've seen them at the Indy 1500 show. I stopped to talk to them but they had weren't able to answer any questions about NFA stuff. I don't know if they were instructed not to answer such questions or if they simply weren't qualified. All they could do was hand out literature.
 
Some years ago, they were a regular fixture at shows in VA and NC. They were the inspectors(beancounbters) and not special agents. I remember a couple of times when they were handing out donuts.

However, the scope of their knowledge always seemed limited to me. Most questions were answered by "contact the technical division in WVA".

I never saw them walking around looking at tables or otherwise snooping. There were the usual number of conspiricy nuts starting rumors about videotaping or 'spying' on dealers and attendees.

The cops I see in most shows, are there free by badging their way.
 
The cops I see in most shows, are there free by badging
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their way.

All of the state / local cops I see at gun shows (other than the guy checking guns at the door) are there looking at guns like the rest of us. I can't tell you why they are there; just that are usually looking at revolvers and jawing with the venders - nothing too unusual there.
 
I don't recall seeing an ATF table at shows, but I haven't been attending many lately. But I think for those that aren't in law enforcement, seeing ATF people being made available to the public is a very good thing. Most are just trying to do their jobs, feed their families, and put their kids through school just like the rest of us.
 
Most are just trying to do their jobs, feed their families, and put their kids through school just like the rest of us.
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So were the Brown Shirts.
Do fool yourself, you may be doing nothing wrong but from their perspective you are the prey.
 
Do fool yourself, you may be doing nothing wrong but from their perspective you are the prey.
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I have regular contact with agents of the ATF, and I can tell you that just isn't true. Most of them are simply folks trying to do their jobs, and life for them is easier when they don't have to bust someone.
 
AhChi WaWa said:
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Do fool yourself, you may be doing nothing wrong but from their perspective you are the prey.
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I don't ever have contact with ATF agents (so far anyway) and this seems a little over the top to me, too.

I'll grant that there are probably some in the organization who are zealots. There are zealot police also. And as you get toward the top some with political appointed affiliations actively work on an agenda.

But I suspect the vast majority of the boots on the ground agents would rather you just mind your business and not make their life harder.
 
I asked one of them who was a big black guy
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.....and this is relevant because?:rolleyes:


Do fool yourself, you may be doing nothing wrong but from their perspective you are the prey.
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Went hunting pheasant yesterday on public land. Opening day, Wardens naturally were out. Ran into other hunters stating the same thing. Wardens I talked to were pleasant and just making their presence known. Only citations they gave were for legitimate violations. No need to be paranoid if one knows the laws and has nuttin' to hide. Law enforcement at all levels has realized that positive PR goes a long way towards making their job easier and making their presence known goes a long way towards keeping folks honest.
 
I didn't say they weren't polite and cordial to be around on a chance encounter or even regular business basis. I agree the ones at the tables are probably there for PR purposes and not for any ulterior conspiracy motive, and Yes, most of them would like to do their job in as pleasant a manner as possible and I'm sure that even the zealots, nothing pleases them more than to see a happy con and smiling mug shot. But don't think for a minute they are not looking for some violation as an excuse to look even closer. Don't think they will give you a break on a minor infraction even if you were ignorant of it. Don't think that any data they collect won't be passed up the chain in a report where others might decide to act on it. I spent 15 years working with various govt. agencies, some with internal oversight & compliance functions (not the one being discussed) and I saw first hand how many were easy going nice guys and family men but almost all would turn in a heartbeat if they discovered something they thought was against some regulation and reporting or acting on it made them look good and furthered their career agenda. Many were on a power trip because they could be, but usually only to those outside their circle.
But your right, if you are doing nothing wrong then you don't have anything to worry about. ;)
 
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I've grown accustomed to glazing over the beef-jerky guy, knife folks, toy peddlers
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I don't do gun shows anymore for the above reasons, they turned in to flea markets.
The last one I attended had very few gun related items.

As for having the ATF at gunshows that would not bother me at all, at least they are gun related.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
AhChi WaWa said:
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But don't think for a minute they are not looking for some violation as an excuse to look even closer.
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Well, as someone who grew up with family full of LEOs my take would be that they're just acting like a county Sheriff's deputy or a Highway Patrol officer. They aren't "out to get you" specifically, but they're engaged in law enforcement. All the time. ALL the time.
 
They aren't "out to get you" specifically, but they're engaged in law enforcement.
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Bingo. As for those who think you won't have trouble if you're following the rules; I'm pretty sure that I don't know even a minor percentage of all the rules on the books. Oh sure, I know the big ones (don't kill, steal, or rape), but I learned those as a little boy in church. As for whether or not that little piece of metal with the extra hole in it is legal....I'm pretty stupid.
 
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