ATF "Always Think Forfeiture"
- Thread starter Republicrat
- Start date
jimpeel:
Directly out of Franz Kafka, if not worse. Heard during a radio newscast today, from Glen Fine, IG of DOJ to the effect that DEA CONTINUES to loose laptop computers, computers containing god knows what sort of information, and GUNS.
As to this civil forfeiture business, it is our elected things, the peoples employees who created that abortion, and who allow run away mobs, ostensibly Law Enforcement Agencies to wallow in the profits derived from what I descsribe, without the slightest reservation, as THEFFT UNDER COLOR OF LAW.
Directly out of Franz Kafka, if not worse. Heard during a radio newscast today, from Glen Fine, IG of DOJ to the effect that DEA CONTINUES to loose laptop computers, computers containing god knows what sort of information, and GUNS.
As to this civil forfeiture business, it is our elected things, the peoples employees who created that abortion, and who allow run away mobs, ostensibly Law Enforcement Agencies to wallow in the profits derived from what I descsribe, without the slightest reservation, as THEFFT UNDER COLOR OF LAW.
In the early 90's, Sheriff Vogel of Volusia County, Florida brought forfeiture to an art form. His stated policy was to seize all cash and firearms found during routine traffic stops on I-95.
Less than 25% (63 out of 262) of the people who had guns and money seized were ever charged with a crime, yet in only four cases did drivers get all of their money back. His feeling was that only drug dealers carry cash.
The sheriff's contention was that since no one ever took him to court to get the money back, that proved the person was guilty. Never mind that lawyers are expensive, and he had thousands of their cash in his possession.
In three years, Vogel's team seized more than $8 million. The money from forfeitures is used as a discretionary fund for DA's and the cops- it pays for furniture, gym equipment, travel to conferences, golf outings, and more.
Some local reporters won a Pulitzer for exposing the whole scheme.
Less than 25% (63 out of 262) of the people who had guns and money seized were ever charged with a crime, yet in only four cases did drivers get all of their money back. His feeling was that only drug dealers carry cash.
The sheriff's contention was that since no one ever took him to court to get the money back, that proved the person was guilty. Never mind that lawyers are expensive, and he had thousands of their cash in his possession.
In three years, Vogel's team seized more than $8 million. The money from forfeitures is used as a discretionary fund for DA's and the cops- it pays for furniture, gym equipment, travel to conferences, golf outings, and more.
Some local reporters won a Pulitzer for exposing the whole scheme.
Not true, of course, but it doesn't matter. God could come down from Heaven and announce to the world that the person was not guilty, and it would not matter.
The PROPERTY is what is "guilty" in a civil asset forfeiture case, not the person, who is never on trial in such a case. Or, more accurately, the property is presumed guilty until proven innocent.
Guilt to me requires some criminal intent, and since property can't have any intent, criminal or otherwise, I've always had a problem with the concept of "guilty" property.
When the government seized the yacht "Monkey Business" because a crew member had a little cannabis, they were not punishing the owner, who was in another state and probably none too pleased with his crew. They were not punishing the crew member, who probably lost his job, but didn't lose his extremely expensive boat. They were punishing the boat for being used in the crime of carrying the crew member's cannabis around.
Did the boat intend to do that? Did the punishment teach it a lesson?
It should. Do you know how many innocent people are sitting in jail right now? Do some research and you will become amazed at the estimates. Take an imperfect justice system where prosecutors often are motivated to convict to improve their records...... add in a motivation of profit (seizure of assets based on your crime)..... and voila.... you've got a sham justice system.
No forfeiture... no seizure..... ever. It is unconstitutional and it is dangerous.
The new director of the ATF is real piece of work... an anti-gun liberal "supported" by Bush. That tells me all I need to know about the current administration.
http://www.gunowners.org/a022108.htm
http://www.gunowners.org/a022108.htm
I don't agree with the "no forfeiture, ever" comment. I have no problem with criminal asset forfeiture laws. Under those laws, the government must actually convict a PERSON, not a piece of property, of a crime. Only then is the asset involved actually subject to forfeiture.
I don't have a problem with the concept of punishing guilty people by taking ill-gotten property. It's this whole policing for profit thing of punishing "guilty" property which I think distorts law enforcement priorities in a manner well illustrated by the title of this thread.
I don't have a problem with the concept of punishing guilty people by taking ill-gotten property. It's this whole policing for profit thing of punishing "guilty" property which I think distorts law enforcement priorities in a manner well illustrated by the title of this thread.
copenhagen
New member
Almost Thucking Fyranny?
Exactly why is it that an anti is allowed to have any position at all in the Bureau of Unmilitarized Longguns Lagers Spirits Handguns Incendiaries and Tobacco in the first place? Do we appoint vegans to be in charge of the USDA or agorophobes to be in charge of the Parks and Recreation service?
Northern Sod Breaker
New member
And here I thought ATF stood for Absolute Total F***ers
I'm done now...............
I'm done now...............
Update: BATFU backs out, reluctantly.
http://sali.house.gov/apps/list/press/id01_sali/atf05152008.shtml
SALI GETS FEDERAL AGENCY TO END ANTI-GUN, ANTI-PRIVATE PROPERTY MARKETING PROGRAM
May 16, 2008
WASHINGTON, D.C. – A federal agency has halted a controversial program giving agents engraved Leatherman tool kits reminding them to focus on the seizure of private property, after Congressman Bill Sali, (R-Idaho), raised objections.
Sali said he will pursue legislation to prevent the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from restarting the marketing program.
The ATF had ordered Leatherman tool kits, engraved with the words “Always Think Forfeiture.” Sali learned of the issue after a constituent brought the purchase to his attention. ATF said the tools were to be used as part of its Asset Forfeiture Program, which provides training to federal, state and local law enforcement. But Sali said the “Always Think Forfeiture” motto engraved on agent tools sent the wrong message to law-abiding citizens.
“Americans have a right to keep and bear arms. We have a right to private property. But ATF, through its engraved motto, sends a message that these rights are secondary to the government’s apparent goal to 'always' seek forfeit of private property. Of course, we all want our law enforcement agencies to pursue and prosecute criminals fully. But I have a problem with a federal agency sending a message, even an unintended one, that law abiding citizens will apparently 'always' be treated the same as criminals.” said Sali.
In an email to Sali’s office, the ATF said after hearing the Congressman’s objections, the agency had “halted the distribution” of “Always Think Forfeiture” engraved items.
The ATF email said, “As part of training for ATF special agents and state and local task force officers, ATF purchased a number of Leatherman tool kits engraved with the words ‘ATF – Asset Forfeiture’ and ‘Always Think Forfeiture’ for distribution to the participants. These training aids were designed to increase awareness of the asset forfeiture concept so that persons who do not regularly employ the strategy as part of a criminal investigation might be reminded to consider it. We regret that ATF’s training initiative created a misperception. However, be assured that ATF’s Asset Forfeiture Program complies with Federal law and Department of Justice guidelines. As a result of the concerns brought to ATF’s attention by your constituents, we have halted the distribution of the training aids at issue.”
Because ATF said the program complies with U.S. Department of Justice standards and federal law, Sali said he’s drafting legislation that would prevent ATF from launching similar marketing program.
Comment: Misperception? Typical BATFU arrogance. Of course, this will have no impact on their abusive tactics against American citizens.
http://sali.house.gov/apps/list/press/id01_sali/atf05152008.shtml
SALI GETS FEDERAL AGENCY TO END ANTI-GUN, ANTI-PRIVATE PROPERTY MARKETING PROGRAM
May 16, 2008
WASHINGTON, D.C. – A federal agency has halted a controversial program giving agents engraved Leatherman tool kits reminding them to focus on the seizure of private property, after Congressman Bill Sali, (R-Idaho), raised objections.
Sali said he will pursue legislation to prevent the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from restarting the marketing program.
The ATF had ordered Leatherman tool kits, engraved with the words “Always Think Forfeiture.” Sali learned of the issue after a constituent brought the purchase to his attention. ATF said the tools were to be used as part of its Asset Forfeiture Program, which provides training to federal, state and local law enforcement. But Sali said the “Always Think Forfeiture” motto engraved on agent tools sent the wrong message to law-abiding citizens.
“Americans have a right to keep and bear arms. We have a right to private property. But ATF, through its engraved motto, sends a message that these rights are secondary to the government’s apparent goal to 'always' seek forfeit of private property. Of course, we all want our law enforcement agencies to pursue and prosecute criminals fully. But I have a problem with a federal agency sending a message, even an unintended one, that law abiding citizens will apparently 'always' be treated the same as criminals.” said Sali.
In an email to Sali’s office, the ATF said after hearing the Congressman’s objections, the agency had “halted the distribution” of “Always Think Forfeiture” engraved items.
The ATF email said, “As part of training for ATF special agents and state and local task force officers, ATF purchased a number of Leatherman tool kits engraved with the words ‘ATF – Asset Forfeiture’ and ‘Always Think Forfeiture’ for distribution to the participants. These training aids were designed to increase awareness of the asset forfeiture concept so that persons who do not regularly employ the strategy as part of a criminal investigation might be reminded to consider it. We regret that ATF’s training initiative created a misperception. However, be assured that ATF’s Asset Forfeiture Program complies with Federal law and Department of Justice guidelines. As a result of the concerns brought to ATF’s attention by your constituents, we have halted the distribution of the training aids at issue.”
Because ATF said the program complies with U.S. Department of Justice standards and federal law, Sali said he’s drafting legislation that would prevent ATF from launching similar marketing program.
Comment: Misperception? Typical BATFU arrogance. Of course, this will have no impact on their abusive tactics against American citizens.
toybox99615
New member
one small step
hammer4nc. That is what you latest post indicates. While it might be small it is in the right direction.
hammer4nc. That is what you latest post indicates. While it might be small it is in the right direction.
hammer4nc offered:
Comment: Misperception? Typical BATFU arrogance. Of course, this will have no impact on their abusive tactics against American citizens.
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Of course, the management down there at BATFE will claim that they are simply acting under the law, the relevant law being a creation of The Congress. Interestingly, they are PARTIALY correct in this claim, though in fact they have taken a poor thing, the law as written, and made it oh so very much worse.
Additionally, and notwithstanding the documented evils of ATF operations/antics, it is The Congress, via it's benign neglect of the above mentioned, to use a polite term, that aids and abets the manifold evils of the BATFE.
Comment: Misperception? Typical BATFU arrogance. Of course, this will have no impact on their abusive tactics against American citizens.
----------------------
Of course, the management down there at BATFE will claim that they are simply acting under the law, the relevant law being a creation of The Congress. Interestingly, they are PARTIALY correct in this claim, though in fact they have taken a poor thing, the law as written, and made it oh so very much worse.
Additionally, and notwithstanding the documented evils of ATF operations/antics, it is The Congress, via it's benign neglect of the above mentioned, to use a polite term, that aids and abets the manifold evils of the BATFE.
