At what point would you break the law?
- Thread starter bushidomosquito
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TexasSeaRay
New member
Stage2 said:
First, what "damage" has occurred?
Secondly, "gun rights" are just that--rights. Hypothetically, would talking about poor voting decisions of various minorities undo years of hard work for equal rights?
And finally, what the Brady bunches are attempting to do is weaken the Constitution. According to the oaths I swore many years ago, that makes them domestic enemies.
Bottom line, they are free to voice their opinions just as I am.
Far too often, many "pro-gunners" disappoint me because they practice and preach appeasment when it comes to defending a Constitutional right. At least the anti-gunners have the testicles to raise hell and voice their opinion without fear of other ant-gunners telling them, "Now Harold, let's speak nice about these gun-toting neanderthal knuckle-dragging killers-in-the-making."
Unbelievable.
Jeff
Rangefinder
New member
Might we also look at the LOOOONG list of registered gun owners with absolutely no criminal history whatsoever, who are good, honest citizens who happen to believe in their right to own and enjoy their firearms with no harm to themselves or society in general.
Who's the real criminal? The guy I just discribed who has a firearm, or the guy who's willing to destroy someone's life, future, livelyhood and family through a bias "legal system" because they don't think they should have the firearm? Seems to me a system that progresses to that point was one of the original purposes of the 2nd Amendment in the first place.
Who's the real criminal? The guy I just discribed who has a firearm, or the guy who's willing to destroy someone's life, future, livelyhood and family through a bias "legal system" because they don't think they should have the firearm? Seems to me a system that progresses to that point was one of the original purposes of the 2nd Amendment in the first place.
Wildalaska
Moderator
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but when a Court rejects a challenge to a law on the grounds that said law is ex post facto, that law is not an ex post facto law.
And we wonder why the "firearms movement" is viewed askance by many.
WildourownworstenemiesAlaska TM
+1 to TexasSeaRay.
This is a RIGHT we're talking about -- not a privilege. A right is not something we should take a compromising attitude toward, nor is it something we should see as contingent on public opinion in any way.
I don't wonder, and again, I don't care.Wildalaska said:
This is a RIGHT we're talking about -- not a privilege. A right is not something we should take a compromising attitude toward, nor is it something we should see as contingent on public opinion in any way.
Simple. Gun owners are not viewed in a favorable light. What some have done here is to either affirm that view, or make it worse, making it that much harder for us to accomplish our goals regarding gun rights.
No because poor voting decisions are not illegal. If you can't see the difference between this and an illegal act, then I can't help you
And? Are you going to call them out on the street at highnoon? Are you going to smoke Sarah Brady and all her supporters? All this talk sounds really great but it means nothing.
Stating that you (generic) currently break the law is not stating an opinion. Furthermore, their opinions help their cause, while the opinions given here only hurt ours.
No. Whats unbelievable is that so many here can be so utterly ignorant. Can you honestly tell me that strutting around, patting each other on the back about how you violate federal and possibly state law does anything to further our cause?
Many here are calling themselves patriots or defenders of the constitution. Of course these same people are the one's who give some pathetic excuse about how its better to "be under the radar" where their illegalities are concerned. Thats not a patriot, thats a coward and a criminal. Nothing more.
I'm really curious to know how many of these people have ACTUALLY done something to further 2A rights. I'm not talking about joining the NRA or buying more guns, or taking some kid shooting, or any of the other stupid excuses we tell ourselves to make us feel like we're contributing.
No, I'm talking about something worthwhile. How many of you have written congress (and not just hate mail to antis). How many of you have done pro bono work on firearms cases. How many of you have volunteered time to get legislation passed. How many have contributed to an amicus brief. I have a feeling that those who have been the loudest in thsi thread are utterly lacking in this category. Getting important things done is hard work. Its far easier to cower in your homes while breaking the law. Of course thats the biggest irony here. Until those of you that have broken the law are able to do these actions in the open without fear of punishment, you are just as subject as I to this injustice. Because you choose to violate the law doesn't make you any more free than me since none of you are willing to openly proclaim it.
Apparently because I'm not ready to play out red dawn in my front yard I'm an "appeaser" or "enslaved". Thats perfectly fine with me. My contributions to the constitution are far more weighty than the empty cheers of hundreds of "internet soldiers". It is the poorly uninformed or the weakminded that mistakes subtlety and tactics for a lack of zealous support for 2nd amendmend rights.
For some ideas on this topic......
I suggest you do some reading. The idea of "what will you do when they come for your guns" has been covered extensively in internet forums, and published works. Many books have touched or even concentrated on this subject, from the blatently racist "Turner Diaries" to the technically awesome "Unintended Consequences", and many others.
I for one, would like to suggest that you get a copy of "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross, and read it. Although it is a novel, it does have a lot of factual information in it, along with some very interesting "what if" questions, and potential answers. And you might get a new understanding of why posting a question like this one on an internet forum might not be such a fine idea.
As for my self, a long time ago I swore an oath to derfend the Constitution if the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And while I still believe in that oath, I never swore to do anything stupid to uphold it.
No US citizen is under any moral compulsion to obey an unconstitutional law. What we must do is accept the consequences of our actions, until an unconstitutional law is delcared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
I obey all current gun laws, even though I do not agree with the restrictions imposed or the reasoning behind them. They are the law, and until changed, should be obeyed.
I do understand the frustrations you feel, and the passion that drives you, because the laws are not just. Yet they are the laws. I have been suffering these unjust laws since 1968, when I first became aware of the impact of gun laws on my personal life. But they are the law. We have, over the years, gotten some of them changed, some restrictions eased. But overall, we have lost far more than we gained. And the reason we have is because we have been complacent, divided, lazy, ignorant, and gullible. AND that no matter what we do or don't do, there are always others who do as they please, defying all the laws that inconvienence them in their pursuit of pleasure. And since they use guns to do that, we suffer for their crimes.
Bad men use guns. = Guns are bad. = Men who have guns are bad. I do believe there is a flaw in that reasoning that any good student could point out. Why do our rulers (and our media) consistantly refuse to see the error?
could it be that they have something to gain by not seeing it?
Looks like a slam dunk to me!
I suggest you do some reading. The idea of "what will you do when they come for your guns" has been covered extensively in internet forums, and published works. Many books have touched or even concentrated on this subject, from the blatently racist "Turner Diaries" to the technically awesome "Unintended Consequences", and many others.
I for one, would like to suggest that you get a copy of "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross, and read it. Although it is a novel, it does have a lot of factual information in it, along with some very interesting "what if" questions, and potential answers. And you might get a new understanding of why posting a question like this one on an internet forum might not be such a fine idea.
As for my self, a long time ago I swore an oath to derfend the Constitution if the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And while I still believe in that oath, I never swore to do anything stupid to uphold it.
No US citizen is under any moral compulsion to obey an unconstitutional law. What we must do is accept the consequences of our actions, until an unconstitutional law is delcared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
I obey all current gun laws, even though I do not agree with the restrictions imposed or the reasoning behind them. They are the law, and until changed, should be obeyed.
I do understand the frustrations you feel, and the passion that drives you, because the laws are not just. Yet they are the laws. I have been suffering these unjust laws since 1968, when I first became aware of the impact of gun laws on my personal life. But they are the law. We have, over the years, gotten some of them changed, some restrictions eased. But overall, we have lost far more than we gained. And the reason we have is because we have been complacent, divided, lazy, ignorant, and gullible. AND that no matter what we do or don't do, there are always others who do as they please, defying all the laws that inconvienence them in their pursuit of pleasure. And since they use guns to do that, we suffer for their crimes.
Bad men use guns. = Guns are bad. = Men who have guns are bad. I do believe there is a flaw in that reasoning that any good student could point out. Why do our rulers (and our media) consistantly refuse to see the error?
could it be that they have something to gain by not seeing it?
Looks like a slam dunk to me!
So you think it's brave to obey the unjustified orders of other mere mortals -- no matter what they might be -- rather than actually take risks in order to be more free? You think it's brave to only do as you're told, like a good little sheep who knows his place?STAGE 2 said:
Is there ANYTHING you'd take a risk for? Or do you just leave that to us "cowards"?
Also, the only "criminals" in the picture are those who participate in the legislation or enforcement of unconstitutional laws. That is a FACT. The Founders of this country were considered "criminals" too, you know. Just because someone has the government on his side, that doesn't mean he has legitimacy on his side.
Personally, I've donated money, written letters to papers, contacted Congressmen (utterly pointless, but can't hurt, either), converted antis, and introduced people to shooting. Nevertheless, I'm not the type to spend a lifetime begging for my rights. Instead, I'm going to live my life according to those rights.
Now, let me ask something I've been asking people for a long time now: What is the point of protecting the Second Amendment if there is nothing that would ever make you use it for its intended purpose? If you're too terrified to use a gun to defend your rights, then why do you need assault weapons or 30-round mags, anyway? Why not just stick to a 12 gauge?
BerettaCougar
New member
This
And 90% of this thread is stupid. I don't think the admins mind new people starting discussions, this one however, comes up every two weeks. And it's full of the same nut jobs.
And 90% of this thread is stupid. I don't think the admins mind new people starting discussions, this one however, comes up every two weeks. And it's full of the same nut jobs.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Really...how about those of us who SCRUPULOUSLY follow each and every one of those unconstitutional laws....
Criminals? or just "sheeple"....
WildletmeknowAlaska TM
If you're following them because you agree with them and wouldn't be doing those prohibited activities anyway, even if they were legal -- great! At least you're not directly contributing to the demise of freedom in this country, like those who write and enforce laws hostile to the Constitution.
But for those who follow them because they're too chicken not to, they're slaves. That's what a slave is: someone who must obey and show absolute loyalty to another person or group of people. Anyone whose only option is to obey another person is essentially owned by that other person. He's that person's property.
Frankly, I find the idea of absolute obedience to other men, as if those men were gods, downright nauseating. "The law" is nothing more than other human beings -- not God Almighty -- telling you what to do. If it makes sense, then there's no reason not to go along with it in the interest of having a functional society. But if certain laws are stupid, or are a matter of "do as I say and not as I do" (e.g., gun control laws), then there is NO obligation to obey them.
I feel sorry for those who don't understand this. We only live once on this earth. To live it as the chattel of the ruling class is a fate worse than death. But some people were born to suffer that fate, while others were born to escape it and rise above it. It's just the nature of things.
Wildalaska
Moderator
So those of us who obey the dumb laws primarily because we dont feel like going to jail are "slaves"...
Hmmm....
OK I'll agree with that...now of course YOU have the courage of your convictions dont you...so isnt it time for you to march on the Courthouse in your area carrying a Thompson whilst screeching your right to own a full auto weapon without the permission of the State?
Come on, the slaves are waiting...lead us Spartacus, lead us.....
Or wait....
You're called. Put up or....
Tomorrow. Go make your machine gun. Go carry when and where you want. Walk through a school playground with a AK under your arm.Go put an ad in the paper advertising that you will go to a gun shop and buy a gun for anyone who asks you....what the hell you can buy screwdrivers for for folks cant you. Set up a table in your front yard and sell lemonade and Bersa...Its your right to do all those things and you have no obligation to obey those laws.
only you can save us...lead us please...
WildwhydoithinitsallchildishnetblusterAlaska TM
behalf
Sigh...I've already answered that "argument" elsewhere. What I said was that there's no point in inviting armed conflict unnecessarily.
Obviously no one on earth is totally free. There are always going to be limits on the kind of behavior that's prudent in light of the risks vs. benefits involved. Why march into a police station with an illegal auto weapon? What does that accomplish?
I have a right to walk through a bad part of town with a huge wad of cash in my hands. Does that mean I'm going to do it, just to prove a point? No. I'll keep the cash in my pocket to minimize the chances of conflict. But if someone tries to rob me anyway, then I have a right to resist.
It's the same way with government. There's no point in bringing the whole system down upon you by openly flouting the law unless enough people have the guts to join you in doing so. But most people have no guts and would let jackbooted thugs rape their daughters before resisting "authority" with force. Thus, those of us who believe in liberty will just have to maximize our freedom while operating with a certain amount of discretion. If we get caught, then that's when we'll have to decide just how much we believe in "liberty or death" -- which I'm sure are just meaningless words to you.
Obviously no one on earth is totally free. There are always going to be limits on the kind of behavior that's prudent in light of the risks vs. benefits involved. Why march into a police station with an illegal auto weapon? What does that accomplish?
I have a right to walk through a bad part of town with a huge wad of cash in my hands. Does that mean I'm going to do it, just to prove a point? No. I'll keep the cash in my pocket to minimize the chances of conflict. But if someone tries to rob me anyway, then I have a right to resist.
It's the same way with government. There's no point in bringing the whole system down upon you by openly flouting the law unless enough people have the guts to join you in doing so. But most people have no guts and would let jackbooted thugs rape their daughters before resisting "authority" with force. Thus, those of us who believe in liberty will just have to maximize our freedom while operating with a certain amount of discretion. If we get caught, then that's when we'll have to decide just how much we believe in "liberty or death" -- which I'm sure are just meaningless words to you.
You don't get it do you. You keep alluding to the founders of this nation as if you and them are somehow kindred spirits. Thats a complete joke. They didn't wage a revolution in the dark of night. They signed a declaration for EVERYONE to see, including the king.
You on the other hand do things in secret. You do this because you are afraid of the consequences. The founders risked their lives. You aren't even willing to risk jail time, so lets stop pretending here.
As far as being a "good little sheep", thats irrelevant also. If I'm a sheep, then you are as well. You don't shoot machine guns at the range, or openly carry while in public. Whatever laws you do break (if any) are done in secret. You are just as constrained as I am so pretending that doing something in your garage makes you free is ridiculous. Telling yourself that you are living by your "rights" doesn't make it so.
Wildalaska
Moderator
In other words...
"Im a sheeple-slave too that talks a good game so no one will think Im a sheeple-slave."
Thanks for playing.
Oif vemens vogen me zitst, zingt men dem lied.
WildidontfeelsoaloneanymoreAlaska TM
How am I a sheeple/slave if I'm not obeying my would-be masters' every whim?Wildalaska said:
This isn't rocket science, WA. If you obey another man's every command, then you're his slave. If you disobey, then he might think you're his slave, but you're really not. I can't make it any more clear than that.
I'm not trying to wage a violent revolution. I'm simply doing as I want to without regard for what the "law" says. I consider violence a last resort to either keep me out of prison for exercising my rights, or in the event that this country descends into truly intolerable tyranny (e.g., people being dragged out of their houses in the middle of the night for having unpopular political opinions).STAGE 2 said:
Yet on another thread you said I should change my IP address. Why don't you make up your mind about whether I'm risking jail time or not?
No, telling yourself that there's no difference between you and me doesn't make it so. One of us has been willing to break the law (not necessarily the machine gun law) in secret. The other is not willing to do even that, but is willing to call those who have the courage to take that risk "cowards." And yes, I am living by my rights because I am disobeying those who would deprive me of those rights. Rebellion in secret is still rebellion, whether you'll admit it or not. Even the most powerful government in the world, the US government, keeps secrets if it fears that the release of that knowledge could cause it harm. Absolutely nobody and nothing on earth is totally free. Some people are just more free than others, and it's often by their own choice.
As I've already said, but you seem to have trouble understanding, the difference is that some us are willing to do things for which we COULD get busted. Some of us won't do even that. And liberty does NOT mean you don't need to use discretion. I've already given an example of that (carrying money in a bad part of town), but of course it went flying over your head.
As for playing Rambo and taking on all the ATF clowns openly and single-handedly, show me ANYONE ON EARTH who would have the courage to do that.
I'm done bickering with you. I'm damn proud of my position and the way I've spat upon laws that I don't approve of and gotten away with it. Maybe someday I'll do more, but for now, I've come out ahead without playing by "the rules."
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Wildalaska
Moderator
Me too! Right on! I got TWO library books I told them I returned and didnt. Pulled the wool right over their neocon eyes I did!
You and I are right up there with Tom Paine, except we are so secret we dont even know we are secret!!!! I spit on your Library Code fascist librarian bwaaaaaahahahahahaha
I'm going to do something real daring next...I'm gonna scream out the window that I own a machine gun, then hide under the bed...hell no head to the shop and make me an auto sear and hide it in a box marked "Keep Out, Homeland defense Survival Patriot Tool" and like every few hours look at it and scream SCREW YOU NEOCON ZOGITES IM A REBEL
Wait...wait.....
Dude, you roll em or use a bong????!!! Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah
WildthisisopricelessAlaska TM
deathshead
New member
I could care less if the b.a.t.f.e. is reading this. I have 5 words. "from my cold dead hands" I am a vet, and the one thing I lerned above and beond all else in the army is my weapon is my life. and I will never give them up. hell I moved from california to ohio just to cut the b.s. of owning an ar or ak
if thay want my weapons thay can come get them, but thay better bring theres.
p.s. "Those who will give up essential liberty to secure a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
if thay want my weapons thay can come get them, but thay better bring theres.
p.s. "Those who will give up essential liberty to secure a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin