Armed Citizen: Oklahoma Pharmacist Defends Employees from Robbers

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That whole O'Reilly exchange is pretty disgusting. I think it is a sad state of affairs that these guys will sit on national television and make statement that boil down to unadulterated racism. What they are saying, with a smug attitude no less, is that no jury is going to convict a white man for executing a black criminal. There just isn't any valid reason, after seeing the video, to support this criminal. Except for ones born of personal prejudice and bias. It is so reassuring that they feel the entire state will share their prejudice.
 
It is not about racism. it is about people bending the law in favor of someone shooting a piece of crap thug.

Is it fair? maybe not
is getting robbed fair?
 
Well put, Pax.

Some additional observations. I don't know if your #2 against included the following but it bears expanding upon.

Ersland went past Parker (exposing his back to Parker) to chase the gunman down the street. At that point, the gunman had broken off the attack, and Ersland was acting aggressively.

Erlsand then comes back and walks past Parker. If Parker were acting in a manner that was threatening, one would have expected Ersland to have backed off or used the gun he had in hand. Unless it were empty. But if Ersland is counting the rounds used, he is a lot cooler in a gunfight than most cops, which isn't helpful to his defense.

Ersland gets a new gun and (instead of going to the back of the store to protect the female employees and perhaps exit the rear of the store or simply staying put and using counter as cover) goes back to confront Parker.

The video I saw wasn't all that clear, but the movements of Ersland appear to be that of a person who was going back to shoot Parker as opposed to someone who was checking on him and was startled by unexpected motion and shot in self defense.

Having said all that, I don't believe that Ersland is guilty of premeditated murder. There is no question in my mind that had Parker not come into the store with an accomplice to rob Ersland, none of this would have happened. Ersland over-reacted to a situation not of his own making, and I have no doubt that Ersland was greatly agitated. Killing in the "heat of passion" will reduce the degree of a homicide. The DA is correct to charge murder 1 since it should be up to a jury to decide what Ersland's state of mind was.

I don't put much stock in the theory that the DA is looking for political cover by charging murder 1. If the DA charges too low (here, say, manslaughter), the jury can not convict even if the evidence shows a higher level of offense. Simply put, you can't be convicted of a crime that you were not charged and tried for. Therefore, it is customary for DA's to charge the highest possible offense and let the jury sort it out.

We have a similar situation here in the SF Bay Area where a BART cop shot a young man, Oscar Grant, who was lying prone on the train platform. Grant was thought by the cops to have been in a fight on the BART train or otherwise being rowdy. The cop warned another cop that he was going to taser Grant but ended up pulling out his firearm and shooting Grant in the back and killing him. The DA here charged the cop with murder 1 too. And, yes, you could say that the DA did that for political reasons since the black community was up in arms over the shooting, but I think its SOP for most prosecutors.
 
It doesn't really matter whether or not Parker was, in fact, a threat -- only whether Ersland reasonably believed Parker was a threat at that moment. That's what the jury will be asked to consider. To do that, they'll look at the totality of circumstances.

Thats a mistatement of the law IIRC. The jury must consider the objective standard too.

WildpleaseseeapostwaybackwhenAlaska ™
 
I think it is a sad state of affairs that these guys will sit on national television and make statement that boil down to unadulterated racism.

I don't see the racism.:confused: No mention of race or creed or color or religion or anything else.

Miller says the guys mistake is pulling a gun on a pharmacist. (Inaccurate technically)

O'reilly says no jury will convict a pharmacist of shooting a guy who tried to rob him of Murder 1.


I don't see any reason to label any part of the exchange "racist".
 
Thats a mistatement of the law IIRC. The jury must consider the objective standard too.
Correct. You can't just walk down the street, shoot someone, and then say "I felt he was a threat." The facts of the situation have to bear out your feelings.
 
Thats a mistatement of the law IIRC. The jury must consider the objective standard too.

You're right and you're wrong! You're right in that one's subjective belief is not enough. The facts must justify it objectively. But you're wrong in that the poster said "reasonably" believed. And that's the "objective" qualifier. Not "actually" believed, which is essential but also that the belief be reasonable.

But I'm quibbling with your quibble. :D
 
I don't see the racism. No mention of race or creed or color or religion or anything else.
To not see the prejudice and racism you would have to squint pretty tightly. If this had been a "down on his luck" white male who committed the robbery and the shooter had done what he did he would be portrayed as a monster who killed someone son, father, brother. I know a lot of people on here have never know discrimination or prejudice and might not be able to see it when it is under the surface but those of us that have can. One big clue is the fact that it is almost always racism when the people spouting the stuff feel the need to say "this is not about race." I have lived in this part of the country and it is indeed very racist.
 
So are you mad that a black man was shot by a white guy or are you mad that O'rielly and Miller are letting go something that was obviously racist. Like the racist pharmacist and jury.
 
Having said all that, I don't believe that Ersland is guilty of premeditated murder. ... Killing in the "heat of passion" will reduce the degree of a homicide.

Premeditation does not have to happen days or weeks in advance. It can happen in just a few moments. For instance, if Ersland saw the guy was down and unconscious (eg, realized he wasn't a threat), but still walked over to retrieve a different firearm from a locked drawer and then walked back to the downed attacker to fire at him, premeditation could very well be established by the break in the action, by the fact that he disengaged and then re-engaged, by time it took for him to do the whole series of actions and by the apparently calm way in which he did it.

On the other hand, if Ersland had simply emptied his still-loaded firearm into the guy, without any break in the action and without disengaging at any point, it would be very very difficult to establish premeditation even if forensic evidence showed the guy was not a threat at that point.

Again, the complete totality of the circumstances would need to be taken into account. But I think the evidence that has come out in the press so far would support murder 1 -- provided the evidence that hasn't yet come out does not contradict it.

As for racism vs no racism, please, guys, let's not go there. Suffice it to say that the race card is gonna get played by some people whether we like it or not -- but we don't have to play that card on TFL.

pax
 
hats a mistatement of the law IIRC. The jury must consider the objective standard too.

That's why I used the phrase "reasonably believed." Of course it's true that he can't simply say "I just felt as if ..." and walk free. On the other hand, if he can establish that a reasonable and prudent person, in the same circumstances, knowing what he knew at the time (and no more!) would have believed the same thing he did (that Parker was a threat), then it would not matter what other physical facts came to light after the dust settled.

It'll be interesting to see what the jury thinks, when & if it gets that far.

pax
 
Premeditation does not have to happen days or weeks in advance. It can happen in just a few moments.


I'm curious about that interpretation. Wouldn't such a thing seem to make ALL killings premeditated? Except for accidents of course, you MUST decide to kill someone before doing so, therefore "premeditated"?

I guess I'm saying that it seems to me that, if such an idea was widely held in court, any time someone killed another person with malice it would ALWAYS be considered premeditated.
 
I cannot find anywhere that says what the pharmacist said he was doing when he went back in and shot the robber. Has he made a statement?
 
To all of the people who think it was a bad decision to shoot the boy while he was getting up:

You are forgetting the Disparity of Force statute. The robber is young and able bodied while the other man is older and a hinder by a back injury and recent surgery. If he feels threatened, and he has every right to after being shot at, than he has much more leeway to respond with lethal force than most of the rest of us. A jury is most likely going to clear him based on that alone.
 
Pre-planned course for self defense and pre-meditated murder are 180 degrees apart. If you spend your days spouting off at the ol' cake grinder about hoping someone tries to mug you so you can try out your new .45 loaded with the "black talons" and posting similar wishes on the WWW you may face murder charges.
If you spend that time professing to never want to take a life and you do your best to help others understand responsible gun ownership and CCW practices, it will be much easier to see your actions as self defense.
If you do have to use your gun and you drop the BG on his keester and them hold him covered until LE arrives, you are "golden" if he makes a move and you show an involuntary physical response such as a rearward lurch before re-engaging with additional shots, it wouldn't be too easy for a DA to charge you even if on camera and BG is out of view.
Brent
 
On the other hand, if he can establish that a reasonable and prudent person, in the same circumstances, knowing what he knew at the time (and no more!) would have believed the same thing he did (that Parker was a threat), then it would not matter what other physical facts came to light after the dust settled.

And to do that...he has to testify.

And if he testifies, hes a goner. The guy suffers from a mouth in 4th gear whilst his brain is in 1st.

WildbetyadinnerinvegasAlaska ™

PS.....I commented originally because you used the word subjective
 
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