Armed Citizen: Oklahoma Pharmacist Defends Employees from Robbers

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OK here is my rant. Hogdogs asked me to keep it short.

Rant: Some otherwise law abiding folks should not own guns due to psychological deficiencies. Unfortunately, the only way to keep them from having guns is to wait till they abuse them.

I cringe when I read comments on this Board indicative of the same problems this guy had. I'm glad some of our mods and more well respected members have been taking these comments to task.

WildrantfinishedAlaska TM
 
Small correction: Defense counsel would be happy for his client to testify on direct provided there was no cross-examination.

The Pharmacist is at the mercy of the DA now. If he goes to trial and does not testify, he will be convicted of 1st Degree murder. If he testifies, a law student could eat him alive on cross and he will be convicted of 1st degree murder.

His only hope. Testify, look wacked out, and bring in shrinks to try to diminish his culpable mental state. He's going to jail, is going to be bankrupted and his life is over.

Now y'all think about all of these multiple pages before ya strap on your gat, spare mags, BUG and flashlight to go to DQ.

WildandwatchwhatyousayonthenetAlaska TM
 
Wildalaska said:
The Pharmacist is at the mercy of the DA now. If he goes to trial and does not testify, he will be convicted of 1st Degree murder. If he testifies, a law student could eat him alive on cross and he will be convicted of 1st degree murder.

The DA still needs to show premeditation and deliberation and I don't think thats cut and dry in this case. Part of me thinks that this might be the reason why he was charged with 1st degree rather than 2nd degree murder. The state can say they tried but he will be rightfully acquitted.
 
Lets just hope the jury is made up of the mans peers and not guys that think a prepared person with a nasty ex-wife is automatically guilty.
I've been working prisons and law enforcement for about 22 years and can tell you it's good to get rid of scumbags if you can. They'll eventually get out of prison and when they do 80% of the time they aren't real worried about victims rights. In my state a killer with life can get out in 20 years. Murder one. I talked to a criminal about what he'd do if a mark were to pull a gun. He said he'd just spin around and put his back to the guy and continue to close the distance. That way the victim would probably have second thoughts of shooting him in the back illegally! That's how they think. That's what the judicial system has taught them. That they are really just a victim as well.
 
Drug defense?

If Ersland was taking drugs for pain and/or control of mood/emotions (PTSD, bi-polar, whatever), that could definitely be a defense opportunity. If you look at the stats on public shootings, there is a HIGH incidence of prescription drug usage-either at the time or sometime before the violence. Here's a link:

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

IMHO, unless he cops a crazy or at least impaired defense, he's gonna be screwed.
 
His only hope. Testify, look wacked out, and bring in shrinks to try to diminish his culpable mental state. He's going to jail, is going to be bankrupted and his life is over.

That pretty much sums it up. Even if he doesn't wind up in jail he will be bankrupted and his life as a pharmacist or normal person is over.
 
I've been working prisons and law enforcement for about 22 years and can tell you it's good to get rid of scumbags if you can.

I'm a fierce advocate of private citizens arming themselves. It's provided by the Constitution. I'm not, however, an advocate of vigilantism. Private citizens don't get to be law enforcement, judge, jury and executioner simultainiously. Under the Castle Doctrine, we are given the right to defend ourselves until the threat is removed. I respect your right to your opinion, but I cannot support it.
 
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Lets just hope the jury is made up of the mans peers and not guys that think a prepared person with a nasty ex-wife is automatically guilty.
I've been working prisons and law enforcement for about 22 years and can tell you it's good to get rid of scumbags if you can.

Unreal. When I was 15, a friend form my neighborhood who I had known all through elementary school/middle school robbed a local flower shop. He took his grandfathers gun and a ski mask then an otherwise good kid walked up the local strip mall and committed and armed robbery for 35 dollars (it was 9 in the morning, the place had been open for all an hour). Now he didn't hurt anyone and was caught less than an hour later. Lucky for him, he came from a great family who was able to get him help and set him on the right path. He went to school, played football and is now a Senior partner for a Major international consulting firm.

Now I tell this story because I wonder if the author of the above quote thinks someone should have executed him that day in the flower shop?
 
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I've been working prisons and law enforcement for about 22 years and can tell you it's good to get rid of scumbags if you can.

Plain English translation:

"You should murder people who are doing bad things if you get the chance."

If I knew someone under my direction had that mindset.... they wouldn't have a job in prison or law enforcement.
 
The Pharmacist is at the mercy of the DA now. If he goes to trial and does not testify, he will be convicted of 1st Degree murder. If he testifies, a law student could eat him alive on cross and he will be convicted of 1st degree murder.

Wild, I think you're a bit premature here.

1) None of us have seen the forensic evidence the DA alluded to. If that evidence does not strongly support ("prove") that Parker was down and unmoving at the moment the fatal shots were fired, Ersland will probably walk.

2) If the jury votes with their feelings instead of going by the law, Ersland will probably walk.

If I were a betting woman, I'd put money down on a conviction for some lesser offense. I think the jury will reject murder 1, on feelings.

pax
 
Pax is right about the forensic and physical evidence. If there are bullet chips in the floor and vinyl tile particles around the exit wounds the guy is a goner!
I do see a lesser verdict but it would take 12 folks willing to overlook all that makes our system the best to let the guy walk if the evidence is at all decent.
Plus the DA seemed to not want to prosecute much so I am guessing the forensic and physical evidence gave him quite a knuckle noogie. Now he could do his best to botch up the presentation so the jury could question his case... Unethical? Yes. Impossible? Hardly...
Brent
 
Bill O'reilly said that he thinks the DA went for Murder 1 because he knows the guy will get off but he (DA) wanted to look like he was going after him.
 
I tend to agree with hogdogs and WA on this. The camera footage alone is incriminating enough, but the fact that he has lied to the police in his statement has absolutly shot (pardon the pun) his credibility and if I were a member on this jury I would have to wonder why an innocent man would lie.

For everyone else, I think a good protocol to follow in home and self defense situations is this: If you have a clear opportunity NOT to kill then take it. The list of scenarios that this could apply to are a mile long I'm sure but as a general rule shooting bad guys in the back, while they're laying down, or when their hands are full of your TV are all situations where you had a clear opportunity NOT to kill.

12 May the LORD judge between you and me. And may the LORD avenge the wrongs you have done to me, but my hand will not touch you. ~ 1st Samuel 24:12
 
peet ~

That's ... not credible. The jury typically receives instructions regarding "lesser and included" offenses before they withdraw for deliberation. The DA charged with the highest offense that could get a conviction, but the jury can choose to convict on anything below that. They aren't constrained to consider only murder 1; they can convict on any lesser and included offense such as manslaughter.

It's possible and even probable that the DA charged high hoping for a lesser plea. But the evidence could certainly support the charge he chose.

pax
 
peet ~

That's ... not credible.

It seemed strange to me but I'm no lawyer, I was watching the show when he said it though. His sort of "closing statement" on the issue was that the DA knew that "no jury in Oklahoma" would convict the guy.
 
If someone points a gun at me, I'm assuming they intend to kill me. If there are two of them, and the other guy is showing a gun, I'm still assuming the second guy is just as much a threat. It is just as easy for him to conceal a weapon as it is you. Guilty by association? You bet your butt, especially if your in a ski mask, as your buddy waves a gun and demands my cooperation. A person with one shot in their head, lying on the ground, can still pull a firearm and get you. Even kids.

This situation is sketchy yes, but I do not think he is all that wrong for thinking anyone who is still alive is a threat. I certainly know if I ever take a shot (from a BG) and go down, I'll do everything I can to still be a threat.

Besides, if you participate in the wrong side of an armed robbery, then you assume the risks, which include a gun weilding victim who kills you. One gun, two people, still equals the ability to shoot you and kill you. And at the time, how was the hero of this pharmacy to know that the kids didn't have a weapon hidden from view?

I say he gets off with a simple apology to the family of the kid. A simple "I'm sorry but I though your kid was going to kill me." I've seen worse video of police "murdering" people for no apparent reason other than adrenaline was flowing and the popo thought there was a threat. If that is good enough for police, why not for citizens?
 
Here's the quote from the show archive:

MILLER: Listen, 14 or 16 (years old), the key thing here is the handgun pointed at the guy. When you come in with a handgun pointed at a guy, you are changing the pharmaceutical prescription over from mortar and pestle to mortar and pistol. You unleashed chaos theory there. And I have to tell you, on my list of things that bothered me that day, somebody pulling a gun on a pharmacist and getting shot, like eight billionth and forty-second on my list, right above global warming. You cannot pull guns on people and expect it to go well. This pharmacist's only mistake, it would appear, is not being an enemy combatant on a foreign battlefield shooting at our troops. Of course, he's going to pull a gun if he's got one. Of course, he's going to shoot the guy. I don't know what he saw down there on the floor. But if he was scared, if he was threatened, then what are you going to do?

I remember years ago when Bernie Getz went freakazoid. What are you supposed to do? You're getting rolled by a kid with a handgun. Are you supposed to all of a sudden be the master of discretion? You don't know. You're in unnatural territory there. I think they've given the pharmacist an out though, Bill, with the murder one. I can see that. This is a premeditated murder one case? I don't think they could prove that.

O'REILLY: No, I think that was either a very dumb mistake by the prosecutor or intentional so the guy gets off, because I agree with you. In Oklahoma, there's not a jury in Oklahoma going to convict this guy of murder one. There isn't. Manslaughter?

MILLER: I don't think so.

O'REILLY: Go ahead.

MILLER: You know, maybe they could have gotten him on an environmental misdemeanor for putting too much lead in the air, but they're not going to get him on murder one. So I think in essence they've given him a pass here.
 
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doh ~

Actually, that's the very point under discussion here: did Ersland reasonably believe Parker was a threat at the moment he fired those fatal shots? It doesn't really matter whether or not Parker was, in fact, a threat -- only whether Ersland reasonably believed Parker was a threat at that moment. That's what the jury will be asked to consider. To do that, they'll look at the totality of circumstances.

In Ersland's favor:

1) Parker was part of a gang or group of people threatening violence, and Ersland did in fact see a firearm in the hands of one of those people. Courts have ruled that in cases where a victim is attacked by a group, each member of the group shares in creating the fear that the intended victim experiences, and thus each member of the group shares in the danger created by the intended victim's reasonable response to that danger. In the heat of the moment, it would be perfectly reasonable for Ersland to believe that Parker was armed, even if he did not specifically see a firearm in Parker's hand.

2) The backpack. If, in his last moments of life, Parker was reaching into his backpack, Ersland's belief that Parker was armed and a threat might be quite reasonable.

3) Where were his hands? If Parker's hands were underneath his body, and he was rolling around or moving such that his hands were not visible to Ersland during the moments before he fired, Ersland might reasonably believe Parker was armed and a threat.

Against Ersland:

1) The DA was very specific that there was "forensic evidence" showing that Parker was down and not moving at the moment those fatal shots were fired. If (for example) there was a straight line of blood from the head wound to a puddle on the ground beneath Parker's head, with no sign that Parker's head had ever moved once he hit the ground, Ersland's story of Parker shouting, moving, and rolling around would be inconsistent with the physical evidence.

2) Ersland's own body language on the video, which may not be consistent with body language one would expect if he was truly in fear for his life at the moment those final shots were fired.

3) Ersland's state of mind as evidenced by things he might have written or said to others before the lethal encounter took place. There's been at least one newspaper story (probably dozens by now) that went into this, and some of what was reported will probably be admissible in court as evidence of Ersland's mindset and prior intent. If the newspaper report is even 1/4 accurate, those things won't work in his favor.

Kathy
 
The DA still needs to show premeditation and deliberation and I don't think thats cut and dry in this case
And what was concocting a fabulous story full of falsehoods?


Suppose the injured Parker was conscious, and rummaging around his body or backpack and was saying "Yo Moses I'm still going to kill you and then I'm going to robs this store and then I'm going to ravage those women back there and pour one out for all my dead homiez."
Suppose he did pose a threat. Were the other employees of the pharmacy still in the line of supposed fire? Could Ersland have taken cover? If so, why did he choose not to?
 
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