Are we with the times?
- Thread starter ZVP
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One is a single very large attacker at contact distance. The revolver offers more powerful cartridges that, IMHO, are better suited to stopping very large people and cannot be pushed out of battery.
Another would be needing to shoot with a weak or injured hand. Many semi-autos can malfunction if not gripped properly, but a revolver can be fired repeatedly so long as the user has adequate strength to pull the trigger.
Sure, you can prepare for any one scenario, but the trick is being able to be optimally prepared for all of them at once. I agree that, with training, practice, and forethought, one can be optimally prepared for nearly any scenario but it's extremely difficult to be optimally prepared for every scenario. Also, how exactly do you define the "worst-case scenario" because I can think of several that are, to my mind, equally bad.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
I do prefer a revolver, in the extreme cold of winter in MN... the only time ( lately ) I've had reliability issues with an auto, is in extreme cold... could have been stiffness of action, or lack of pressure of the cartridge being fired in extreme cold, but the revolver offers 100% function, & the added penetration is also a plus when the crazies might be wearing several layers of coat
micromontenegro
New member
That is the exact reason I carry a revolver for. Having been hurt before, I know first hand how an autoloader can become a single shot when you are really weak. And let's face it: if you are shooting, you will most probably be shot at.
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Originally posted by dgludwig
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While it is undeniable that a semi-automatic is the best handgun for certain situations, a revolver is a better choice for other situations.
Given people equally well-trained with both a revolver or a semi-auto, I am curious as to what kind of situation there might be when you think that having a revolver is the "better choice".
If you want to "push the envelope" in terms of what's best in certain self-defense situations when using a cartridge that is practical for most self-protection applications, I would think that a 10mm fired from a semi-auto pistol would be plenty enough to stop any "very large attacker" in his tracks.
Whereas some semi-autos may be prone to malfunction when "limp-wristed"; others are not. I have at least four semi-autos in my possession that I cannot get to jam no matter how hard I've tried to induce a malfunction by shooting them from a grip held as "lightly" as possible. The Beretta 92, the SIG models 226 and 220 and the S&W Model 4006 have passed the "test" in my experience. There doubtless more than a few other semi-auto pistols that are equally insusceptible to "limp wristing" failures.
In terms of being able (or not) to fire a handgun with an injured or weak hand and assuming that said injured hand is not strong enough to cock the hammer of a revolver, I would argue that the typical trigger pull from most semi-autos in the sa mode is far lighter (thus easier to pull) than that of any revolver being fired in the da mode.
I agree that a semi-auto cannot be fired "out of battery".
I'm not "pro" or "anti" revolver or auto. As I've reported more than a few times, two of my favorite handguns that I carry often concealed are the Colt Cobra and the Smith & Wesson Model 12 revolvers. And I certainly agree that the choice of whether to carry a revolver or a semi-auto comes down to personal preferences, individual circumstances and, most importantly, which handgun the person is most familiar and proficient with.
I am pretty much equally proficient with both types of handguns. But if I knew with certainty that I would be involved in a gunfight in the next hour (the exact scenario completely unknown as it would be in "real life"), and I had to use a handgun from one of the many that I own to defend myself with, I can assure you that it would not be one of my pet carry revolvers. No, I'd opt for a reliable, high capacity semi-auto and a couple of extra magazines to face the undefined threat with. Though, I don't think I'd be too wrong by choosing my Smith Model 686 Plus revolver and a couple of extra speedloaders...
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Magnum Wheel Man
New member
DG... is there another 10mm Magnum around I don't know about ???
I have an Automag 4 in 10 Mag, ( much to large for everyday carry ) if there is something so chambered, in a full sized ( not oversized ) auto, I'd like to know...
if it was a slip, meaning just 10mm ( which is like a magnum 40 ) I agree the 10mm does offer 357 magnum level power out of an auto...
In fact... if I had to get into a gun fight ( & it wasn't in the dead of winter ) I'd probably choose my 10mm... or my 5 shot 44 special... I know... opposite ends of the capacity spectrum
I have an Automag 4 in 10 Mag, ( much to large for everyday carry ) if there is something so chambered, in a full sized ( not oversized ) auto, I'd like to know...
if it was a slip, meaning just 10mm ( which is like a magnum 40 ) I agree the 10mm does offer 357 magnum level power out of an auto...
In fact... if I had to get into a gun fight ( & it wasn't in the dead of winter ) I'd probably choose my 10mm... or my 5 shot 44 special... I know... opposite ends of the capacity spectrum
Sorry, Magnum Wheel Man, it was a "slip". I meant to say 10mm. But, as you affirmed, there is a semi-auto that can be chambered in 10mm Magnum, however impractical it might be for most in terms of a handgun intended for self-defense. I'm going to delete the word "Magnum" in order to avoid any further confusion generated on my part.
stubbicatt
New member
If I knew I was to face assailants for sure I'd carry a rifle. With as many magazines as I could pack. Just my choice.
Myself I split the difference, so to speak, by carrying a revolver that uses moon clips. I think the revolver is inherently more reliable than the shell shucker, but is limited in the number of cartridges it can carry. I can discharge it almost as quickly as an autopistol, and with moon clips, can reload mighty fast too.
These are very personal decisions, and each must make his own choice. I hope the only action my revolver ever sees is rusting while residing in my holster. But if the situation demands, I have great confidence in this tool of self defense to be reliable and accurate, and confidence in my abilities gained through education and training.
While I don't argue the effectiveness of the 10mm cartridge (it's actually my favorite semi-auto cartridge), it still has its limitations. For one thing, the choice of both guns and ammunition is rather limited in 10mm. About the only guns currently produced in 10mm that I would trust to be reliable enough for carry are the Glock 20 or 29 or one of the rather expensive 1911 variants. Likewise, with the exception of a few boutique loadings, there are relatively few 10mm JHP loadings available which take advantage of the power that the cartridge can offer. Finally, the 10mm requires a large-frame (.45 ACP sized) pistol that may not be practical for carrying in all situations. About the smallest 10mm available is the Glock 29 and while that may work for some people, my experience with small Glocks has not been positive from a reliability or ergonomics standpoint.
By comparison, I can get up to and including .357 Magnum in a very small revolver (S&W J-Frame or Ruger LCR). Likewise, if I don't mind carrying a full-sized handgun, I've never found a S&W N-Frame, which can offer me cartridges up to and including .44 Magnum, to be any more cumbersome to carry than a full size semi-auto so long a the barrel length is kept at 5" or less.
My experience has been the opposite. I have seen semi-autos which are normally praised for their reliability including Glocks, Ruger P-Series, and CZ's experience grip induced malfunctions in the hands of shooters who don't normally have those sorts of issues. I will concede, however, that some semi-autos are more prone to these sorts of malfunctions than others: guns with lightweight frames (usually polymer) and high bore axes seem more prone to this because their frames are less resistant to movement under recoil. I also not that in many cases, the same shooters who experienced "limp wrist" malfunctions with semi-autos were able to shoot a revolver without issue in the very same range session.
To each his own, if you feel more comfortable with a semi-auto then it is obviously the gun for you. Personally, if I knew ahead of time that I'd have to defend myself with a handgun I'd reach for my S&W Model 28 because I know that I can shoot that particular gun better than any other handgun I've ever tried. Of course the fact that I've probably put more rounds through that particular gun than any two or three of my other handguns combined likely plays no small part in my proficiency with it
.Actually, feeling "more comfortable" with a semi-auto has little to do with why I would choose one over a revolver in the aforementioned mock scenario. As I explained in a previous post, I'm "pretty much equally proficient with both types of handguns" so, for me at least in this context, comfort is a state of mind that implies subjectivity and, while certainly worthwhile, is no substitute for the objective advantages I feel the auto has over the revolver (increased capacity and faster reloads being the main, if not only, ones).
If you feel that the objective advantages the revolver has over an auto (uber-reliable, simpler to operate, unaffected by different loads and bullet weights/configurations being, imo, the primary ones-the very same reasons I carry one much of the time), coupled with the fact you are more familiar (comfortable) and proficient with a revolver, it is obviously the gun for you. As you so rightly said, "to each his own."
Though reloading a revolver will never be faster than recharging a semi-auto (the use of moon clips does help close the gap), good training and plenty of practice goes a long way toward speeding things up. For a couple of decades prior to my agency transitioning from revolvers to semi-autos, I spent a lot of time learning to be proficient with reloading a da revolver under the stress of re-qualification courses of fire. Assuming you are right-handed (southpaws, unfortunately, are at a distinct disadvantage when reloading most da revolvers) the procedure we found best was to open the cylinder with your right hand, switch the gun to your left hand, cradling the revolver with the two middle fingers of your left hand supporting the cylinder while the thumb of your left hand pushes the ejector rod back firmly, releasing the spent cartridges from their chambers. When dumping the brass, keep the grip end of the gun pointed to the ground so that gravity works to your advantage.
After the gun is empty, tilt the revolver the other way (muzzle pointing toward the ground) so as again to allow gravity to work in your favor, and with your right hand (while keeping the cylinder stable with your left hand), insert the speedloader. After the gun is charged, toss the speed loader away from you in a direction you are less likely to step on it and close the cylinder with your left thumb.
I never got comfortable using "speed strips" and could probably reload my revolver faster with loose cartridges in my pocket (not recommended). Speed loaders of whatever type should be kept on the right side of your body if possible so that the right hand can access them more readily.
Finally, you mentioned possibly carrying a single-action revolver. That's fine, I suppose, if that's the revolver you are more proficient and familiar with but you'd best adopt a "New York reload" to have any hope of getting a gun ready to resume the fight before the turtle crosses the finish line.
dgludwig said:
I posted a pic of this step earlier in this thread (post 24).
dgludwig said:
IMHO, it's better to just let it drop, even if you might step on it. Time is crucial, and tossing the speedloader takes time.
Closing the cylinder is a step that can be multi-tasked to save a bit of time - close the cylinder with the base of your left (weak) thumb as you're raising the gun, not as a separate step before raising the gun.
Anyone can outshoot newbies. I consider most shooters "noobs" despite their claimed "thirty years of shooting". They never mention that they only fire 50 rounds a year (or some other low round count that is never enough practice to acquire proficiency) . The relevant questions are:
What did you learn from watching them?
Were you able to improve your score over the last time you shot the course?
What did you do differently and how did it affect your score?
There are several revolver reloads, but I choose to use Ayoob's method because it is the most reliable. http://youtu.be/oXUwI_d8JlA
I dislike his speed strip method: http://youtu.be/pMAXlT3ZLzs
Michael de Bethencourt also teaches loading J-Frames from speed strips. I prefer it because he prioritizes getting the gun partially loaded as fast as possible over a full reload. I do not see that video. He does show an alternative speedloader reload. Look for snubtraining on youtube.com.
Clint Smith with moonclips: http://youtu.be/xbcyAKoQZrs
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Magnum Wheel Man
New member
I wasn't really trying to brag that I out shot newbies... my point was back to the "nut behind the wheel" comment in my last post... if you are confident in your abilities, experienced at shooting the equipment you're carrying, it doesn't much matter if you are holding a high cap auto, or an antique revolver...
however the key, since we are not offensively shooting ( I hope ) is how we respond, to the stress related to an unexpected threat, or after being pointed at or fired upon... I think 90% ( or better ) shooters ( myself included ) have never been shot at before... I think it an unlikely expectation to be able to hit 2 crazies with 2 shots, no matter what we are packing, & how good we are on the qualifying range... with the ability to offer back a couple shots of armed resistance, it is likely going to put the crazies looking for an easier mark
however the key, since we are not offensively shooting ( I hope ) is how we respond, to the stress related to an unexpected threat, or after being pointed at or fired upon... I think 90% ( or better ) shooters ( myself included ) have never been shot at before... I think it an unlikely expectation to be able to hit 2 crazies with 2 shots, no matter what we are packing, & how good we are on the qualifying range... with the ability to offer back a couple shots of armed resistance, it is likely going to put the crazies looking for an easier mark
I'm not sure I entirely agree with this technique. "Raising" the gun as you close the cylinder might save you a micro-second (and every "second" counts), but I would be concerned that "in the heat of the battle" a person could possibly raise the gun a bit too much in advance of closing the cylinder, causing rounds to fall out, even partially. I know that proper training and practice is the key to performing every step correctly but, because stress and urgency of action during a firefight can negatively affect even the best training measures, I'll stick with closing the cylinder as a separate step, while the revolver is still pointed downwards.
I confess I missed the excellent picture you provided in post no. 24.
Great replies!
I too feel perfectlly well armed with my Chief and/or my Model 10, 4" HB.
Pratice is paramount! You MUST hit your target no matter what caliber you shoot!
The Chief is a demanding little fart. it needs you to concentrate all your skills into making the perfect first shot! It's a revolver that needs a consistant hold and you must learn to fire D/A! This is why I bought mine.A former owner bobbed the hammer which I don't mind at all, He even did a pretty nice job.
The Model 10 is every bit a fighting gun, and it's very accurate to boot!
My ears can'thandle the .357muzzleblast and the flash is also bad. The .38 Special is tolerable and easy on the body.
I can see why the Model 10 in .38Special was in service so long! it's near perfect for the job!
Advancments today have brought about better tools but that dosen't mean the Model 10 is obsolete!
When I started this string I wanted a lively discussion. I got that and more!
ZVP
I too feel perfectlly well armed with my Chief and/or my Model 10, 4" HB.
Pratice is paramount! You MUST hit your target no matter what caliber you shoot!
The Chief is a demanding little fart. it needs you to concentrate all your skills into making the perfect first shot! It's a revolver that needs a consistant hold and you must learn to fire D/A! This is why I bought mine.A former owner bobbed the hammer which I don't mind at all, He even did a pretty nice job.
The Model 10 is every bit a fighting gun, and it's very accurate to boot!
My ears can'thandle the .357muzzleblast and the flash is also bad. The .38 Special is tolerable and easy on the body.
I can see why the Model 10 in .38Special was in service so long! it's near perfect for the job!
Advancments today have brought about better tools but that dosen't mean the Model 10 is obsolete!
When I started this string I wanted a lively discussion. I got that and more!
ZVP
"am I outgunned with my Chief and my Model 10?" ...... What's a Revolver Man to do?"
Get a Smith and Wesson Model 627 - 8-shot .357. The Cylinder comes milled for use with moon clips. You shouldn't feel out-gunned with one of these. Taurus makes an 8-shot .357, but I'm not a fan of Taurus and they seem to be substantially larger than the S&W's.
Get a Smith and Wesson Model 627 - 8-shot .357. The Cylinder comes milled for use with moon clips. You shouldn't feel out-gunned with one of these. Taurus makes an 8-shot .357, but I'm not a fan of Taurus and they seem to be substantially larger than the S&W's.