Are pistol caliber rifles as good for personal defense?
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
I put my Sub2000 and PF9 in that category as well.
A PCC does one thing better than a shotgun for sure. It allow precise placement of shots from 0 to 50 yards and beyond. Once a shotgun gets beyond 10 or 15 yards, it's hard to predict where buckshot is gona go. A shotgun slug may allow a bit more "precision" but risks over penetration and lacks accuracy compared with a PCC. In today's market the Ruger PCC is one of the best choices for "Home Defense".
bamaranger
New member
rifles & carbines
Everyone will shoot a carbine/longarm more accurately than a handgun, at any distance beyond contact. Thus the autopistol caliber carbines bring an enhanced degree of accuracy to the game. However, the autopistol cartridges do not gain all that much steam from the longer carbine barrels. The exception to this may be the 10mm Auto, as the powder capacity is approaching the levels where the longer carbine tube may produce a useful increase in velocity. This same advantage can be applied to the magnum pistol cartridges, the .357 and .44. Those cartridges approach rifle ballistics inside of 100 yds when fired from a carbine. None of the pistol caliber cartridges, even the magnums, offer any extended range like a true rifle caliber.
If one is going to utilize a long arm/rifle, , with the inherent the lack of concealability, bulk in close quarters and weight, it seems prudent to take advantage of the increased incapacitation ability of the intermediate rifle calibers. There is a distinct edge to rifle calibers in their ability to stop an aggressor. The .223 as an example with correct projectiles is not particularly over penetrative, but offers a distinct edge in incapacitation.
The mag pistol cartridges from a carbine, properly loaded, may be in that same class. I can offer multiple examples of .357 carbines firing l125 grain projectiles and their destructiveness on tissue. I have never seen said factory load "melt and splatter." Similarly, I have found that .44/180-200 grain JHP's frequently will not exit a whitetail when shot from a carbine. But the mag pistol calibers do not offer any range.
The need for a cartridge with reach and penetration for personal defense can be debated. The big .30's, and the .223 can be loaded to offer more of same. Circumstances and locale would determine the "need".
Everyone will shoot a carbine/longarm more accurately than a handgun, at any distance beyond contact. Thus the autopistol caliber carbines bring an enhanced degree of accuracy to the game. However, the autopistol cartridges do not gain all that much steam from the longer carbine barrels. The exception to this may be the 10mm Auto, as the powder capacity is approaching the levels where the longer carbine tube may produce a useful increase in velocity. This same advantage can be applied to the magnum pistol cartridges, the .357 and .44. Those cartridges approach rifle ballistics inside of 100 yds when fired from a carbine. None of the pistol caliber cartridges, even the magnums, offer any extended range like a true rifle caliber.
If one is going to utilize a long arm/rifle, , with the inherent the lack of concealability, bulk in close quarters and weight, it seems prudent to take advantage of the increased incapacitation ability of the intermediate rifle calibers. There is a distinct edge to rifle calibers in their ability to stop an aggressor. The .223 as an example with correct projectiles is not particularly over penetrative, but offers a distinct edge in incapacitation.
The mag pistol cartridges from a carbine, properly loaded, may be in that same class. I can offer multiple examples of .357 carbines firing l125 grain projectiles and their destructiveness on tissue. I have never seen said factory load "melt and splatter." Similarly, I have found that .44/180-200 grain JHP's frequently will not exit a whitetail when shot from a carbine. But the mag pistol calibers do not offer any range.
The need for a cartridge with reach and penetration for personal defense can be debated. The big .30's, and the .223 can be loaded to offer more of same. Circumstances and locale would determine the "need".
LightninST
Inactive
Lever guns have worked for many years 38,357,41,44,45colt all will work
RockyMtnTactical
New member
The stats basically say that 2/3 people shot with a rifle die, and about 1/3 shot with a pistol die.
Obviously we don't want to kill anyone, but I think that demonstrates the effectiveness of a rifle round vs a pistol round.
Personally, I think SMG's are more of a novelty unless the recoil is exceptionally low. Having burst fire would also be a huge plus in that case.
Without those things, why not just go with a rifle? The AR-15 (or anything in 5.56) is great for this purpose as it is more powerful than a pistol round. Additionally, if you miss and the rounds go through a wall or something else they lose a lot of the speed that gives it that lethality.
Obviously we don't want to kill anyone, but I think that demonstrates the effectiveness of a rifle round vs a pistol round.
Personally, I think SMG's are more of a novelty unless the recoil is exceptionally low. Having burst fire would also be a huge plus in that case.
Without those things, why not just go with a rifle? The AR-15 (or anything in 5.56) is great for this purpose as it is more powerful than a pistol round. Additionally, if you miss and the rounds go through a wall or something else they lose a lot of the speed that gives it that lethality.
TruthTellers
New member
They are for typical self defense distances, but not out to 250 yards or more.
I'd honestly like to know who has ever had to shoot someone in self defense further than about 100 yards. It seems if someone is buying a semi auto rifle that's for defense/combat that's not a .22, it has to be capable of effective hits out to 200 yards or more for some reason, yet the chance of needing that is very slim except in one case which is societal breakdown and a collapse into anarchy.
But since we're all in agree that will NEVER happen, I don't see how a PCC that uses the same mags and ammo as ones pistol and the PCC is 100 yards capable is such a useless gun or waste of money.
I'd honestly like to know who has ever had to shoot someone in self defense further than about 100 yards. It seems if someone is buying a semi auto rifle that's for defense/combat that's not a .22, it has to be capable of effective hits out to 200 yards or more for some reason, yet the chance of needing that is very slim except in one case which is societal breakdown and a collapse into anarchy.
But since we're all in agree that will NEVER happen, I don't see how a PCC that uses the same mags and ammo as ones pistol and the PCC is 100 yards capable is such a useless gun or waste of money.
Hunters often talk about shot placement being important, more so than a .308 vs. a 300 Win Mag. Since a PCC delivers group sizes in the range of 1/4 the size of a pistol with 30% energy, do you just discount those increases in advantage?
What if your assumptions are all wrong and that the increase in lethality with rifles is due to the ability to place the hits with 400% more accuracy.
RockyMtnTactical
New member
You bring up a valid point, I won't deny it.Hunters often talk about shot placement being important, more so than a .308 vs. a 300 Win Mag. Since a PCC delivers group sizes in the range of 1/4 the size of a pistol with 30% energy, do you just discount those increases in advantage?
What if your assumptions are all wrong and that the increase in lethality with rifles is due to the ability to place the hits with 400% more accuracy.
I don't think it makes up all the difference, but it certainly plays a part.
I have hunted pigs with pistols, so less power than a pistol caliber carbine. Close enough to the animal they die... at a distance analogous to self defense range, that is. Too far away, higher probability of missing.
Shoot one with a rifle caliber, they die quicker. And if they don’t die quickly after being shot with a rifle, they can’t get along very far with their eyeballs hanging out and large amounts of muscle gone.
Sorry to be so graphic, but that’s how it is.
On the flip side, if you fire a rifle caliber out of a shorter barrel inside of an enclosed space, you won’t be hearing much for a while and the room fills up with smoke. You must also consider flash and maneuverability.
Now fire a pistol cartridge out of a carbine, the smoke, flash and noise will be less than that of a handgun.
Some will write things about penetrating interior walls, I’ve got news... for the most part, they all penetrate normal interior construction.
How do I know this you say? I’ve tried it all out. I had a large shooting area for several years and I tried it all out. You can read on the Internet all day, but if you don’t test things out you will won’t fully know what the different configurations do.
My opinion: inside the house I’d want a pistol, or PCC. Outside of the house, I’d want a rifle caliber. I see outside self defense scenarios as rare, because I most likely would never have a rifle around when I need a gun.
Shoot one with a rifle caliber, they die quicker. And if they don’t die quickly after being shot with a rifle, they can’t get along very far with their eyeballs hanging out and large amounts of muscle gone.
Sorry to be so graphic, but that’s how it is.
On the flip side, if you fire a rifle caliber out of a shorter barrel inside of an enclosed space, you won’t be hearing much for a while and the room fills up with smoke. You must also consider flash and maneuverability.
Now fire a pistol cartridge out of a carbine, the smoke, flash and noise will be less than that of a handgun.
Some will write things about penetrating interior walls, I’ve got news... for the most part, they all penetrate normal interior construction.
How do I know this you say? I’ve tried it all out. I had a large shooting area for several years and I tried it all out. You can read on the Internet all day, but if you don’t test things out you will won’t fully know what the different configurations do.
My opinion: inside the house I’d want a pistol, or PCC. Outside of the house, I’d want a rifle caliber. I see outside self defense scenarios as rare, because I most likely would never have a rifle around when I need a gun.
One thing that is interesting is that there are 2, count them, 2 overall champions in open firearms major competitions that are women. Both are great women, one in PRS and one in PCC. Knowing and shooting with most of the top practical shooting sports women, most of them will tell you that they just can't run shotguns and pistol at the speed of the men. But with a rifle/PCC, that upper body strength advantage is reduced considerably. The top male PCC shooters run them incredibly faster than their pistols and .223 ARs, so that factor is worthy of consideration.
I'd contend that the less skilled a person is, the less work and practice is needed to get them to a proficiency level with a PCC as opposed to any other center fire weapon system. I have seen it over and over at the intro to firearms courses I teach. Sometimes they are for CCW, sometimes for a Corporate events, sometimes for a birthday party. With about 30 minutes of coaching, I can have 10 year olds to 80 year olds hitting 10" steel plates, on the move from 10 to 20 yards without many exceptions. That level of accuracy on the move with a pistol or a shotgun takes hours and usually multiple sessions.
I'd contend that the less skilled a person is, the less work and practice is needed to get them to a proficiency level with a PCC as opposed to any other center fire weapon system. I have seen it over and over at the intro to firearms courses I teach. Sometimes they are for CCW, sometimes for a Corporate events, sometimes for a birthday party. With about 30 minutes of coaching, I can have 10 year olds to 80 year olds hitting 10" steel plates, on the move from 10 to 20 yards without many exceptions. That level of accuracy on the move with a pistol or a shotgun takes hours and usually multiple sessions.
drive_sideways
New member
To expand on your point, those calibers, especially the magnums, offer levels of ballistics that match rifles. 1900-2000 FPS for 44 mag and 45 LC +p, north of 2000 FPS for 357 mag (bullet type dependent). The auto cartridges (9mm, 40, 45 ACP) are a lot slower. A 10mm AR is the only one that can come close to matching the magnum revolver calibers in terms of ballistics. IMO, the PCC’s like the sub2000 or Ruger PC Carbine make excellent home defense weapons. Those sweet lever guns (especially 44 mag and 45 LC +p, or step up to 454 casull, 460 s&w or 500 s&w) make great bear defense guns for Alaska, you can pair it with a revolver of the same caliber as well. Personally I’m with you, I like PCC’s and believe they do fill an important role in HD, or depending on the caliber, excellent bear defense.
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For personal defense I have considered something like the CZ Scorpion in the pistol version instead of the carbine version. It's relatively small and compact, but you can have three points of contact for stability with a brace and greater accuracy at distances, especially with shaky hands and old eyes as the OP mentioned.
Yes, that's a brace because it's categorized as a pistol in this barrel length not a carbine.
Desmosedici
New member
I can't imagine why a PCC wouldn't be good for personal defense, at least inside of a home. Just spitballing here, but suppressing one in .45 would sound like a very versatile, easy to fire weapon with good ballistics and certainly solid sound reduction.
And, as stated, firing one indoors would be substantially less disorienting. Going out of the house would be different.
And, as stated, firing one indoors would be substantially less disorienting. Going out of the house would be different.