I rely upon my handguns for personal defense, both in my home and with what I carry when out of the house. I also keep a shotgun for when and if the SHTF scenarios. But in considering a rifle for more in depth defense I am concerned with over penetration from most traditional rifle rounds such as 30-30 or 30.06 or the like, and wondered if I would be better off with a rifle, such as a lever action rifle that uses a pistol round like 357mag. With my eyes and shaky hands as I age I am not thinking about ever having to target something that is hundreds of yards away, but want something that would do the job at closer distances, such as 100 yards. I admit to not knowing much about rifle effectiveness and hope to get some advice here.
Are pistol caliber rifles as good for personal defense?
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
Looking at it purely objectively, if a 357 or 9mm (or whatever your choice of handgun caliber is) are effective for self defense out of a handgun, they are certainly going to be as effective out of a rifle (or carbine) length barrel.
And you should get more muzzle velocity with the longer barrel.
And you should get more muzzle velocity with the longer barrel.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
If your concern is over-penetration, before you buy anything I suggest you fire up YouTube and watch some of the penetration videos done by the guys at the Box O' Truth channel.
How come everybody is tickled pink with a SIG P365 with its itty bitty 3in barrel but then questions whether or not a 16nch carbine is better then harsh language? 
.357 out of a 16inch carbine is NO JOKE.
9mm out of a carbine gains a bit of ballistics while being FAR EASIER to shoot.
Now all that said. If penetration is a worry the box of truth suggestion is a good one but keep in mind pretty much ANY caliber/round worth relying on for SD is gonna zip right through at least a wall or 3.
.357 out of a 16inch carbine is NO JOKE.
9mm out of a carbine gains a bit of ballistics while being FAR EASIER to shoot.
Now all that said. If penetration is a worry the box of truth suggestion is a good one but keep in mind pretty much ANY caliber/round worth relying on for SD is gonna zip right through at least a wall or 3.
I would never use a 30 06 or 30 30 for defensive use. Just too much penetration and range to even consider in an urban area. Leave those for hunting and ranch use where there is open space between people. 223/5.56 only works in town when loaded with frangible ammo that fragments. Same for 7.62x39, 308 Winchester, etc.
I would suggest you consider a 30 carbine or 357 with a soft points or a heavy HP. 44 Special/Mag and 45 Colt are also viable options. Lightly constructed bullets fired from a 357 rifle can melt in mid air when pushed past 1500 or 1600fps. Found this out with some 125 grain winchester hollow point reloads! Nothing left but a splatter on the target by 50 yards. 158gr LSWC loads at 1100 to 1300fps or 38 special factory 125gr HP loads at about 1100 from a rifle will work fine. A semi auto rifle in 9mm or 40 caliber will give you a 100 to 200fps bump in speed over a handgun and your ability to hit beyond 30 yards will be much higher than from a handgun. A coyote hit with a HP from a 40 carbine will just flop over dead! Chances of over penetration with a 9mm rifle is much less than with a 357 rifle which if loaded with 158 JSP ammo would punch through a bunch of stuff before stopping. Another really good lever option to consider is the 327 Federal Henry. Think rimmed 30 carbine performance with several good HP and SP options.
What handgun calibers do you currently shoot? There may be a suitable carbine that will share the ammo with a handgun you own. Just please Nix the 30-30 or 30-06 as home defense options.
I would suggest you consider a 30 carbine or 357 with a soft points or a heavy HP. 44 Special/Mag and 45 Colt are also viable options. Lightly constructed bullets fired from a 357 rifle can melt in mid air when pushed past 1500 or 1600fps. Found this out with some 125 grain winchester hollow point reloads! Nothing left but a splatter on the target by 50 yards. 158gr LSWC loads at 1100 to 1300fps or 38 special factory 125gr HP loads at about 1100 from a rifle will work fine. A semi auto rifle in 9mm or 40 caliber will give you a 100 to 200fps bump in speed over a handgun and your ability to hit beyond 30 yards will be much higher than from a handgun. A coyote hit with a HP from a 40 carbine will just flop over dead! Chances of over penetration with a 9mm rifle is much less than with a 357 rifle which if loaded with 158 JSP ammo would punch through a bunch of stuff before stopping. Another really good lever option to consider is the 327 Federal Henry. Think rimmed 30 carbine performance with several good HP and SP options.
What handgun calibers do you currently shoot? There may be a suitable carbine that will share the ammo with a handgun you own. Just please Nix the 30-30 or 30-06 as home defense options.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Velocity isn't the issue. Or, rather, velocity (too much thereof) is the issue. The OP is concerned about over-penetration. I think a .357 handgun is likely to be a candidate for over-penetration, and the added velocity out of a carbine barrel is only going to make the over-penetration more likely and more severe.cslinger said:
An AR pistol in 9mm would be good for home defense but I wouldn't try it for a CC weapon.
The only problem with a rifle caliber pistol most rounds pack too much powder & not only will cause too much noise inside your home the muzzle flash could set something inside your house on fire. It would almost be like setting off a flash bang grenade.
The only problem with a rifle caliber pistol most rounds pack too much powder & not only will cause too much noise inside your home the muzzle flash could set something inside your house on fire. It would almost be like setting off a flash bang grenade.
PCCs are far easier to shoot accurately than pistols. More so for older folks or those with mobility/strength limitations. That, in and of itself limits the potential of a round leaving since your hit percentage increases substantially.
I'd put a PCC in first place for a HD choice for most people and situations. Easier to run than a handgun, shotgun or rifle caliber, effective and, except for actual rifles, that much higher hit percentage is a real benefit that can not be denied.
I'd put a PCC in first place for a HD choice for most people and situations. Easier to run than a handgun, shotgun or rifle caliber, effective and, except for actual rifles, that much higher hit percentage is a real benefit that can not be denied.
This is a yes and no kind of thing. And, in a way its like the .223, penetration depends on the BULLET and the velocity.
people advise using the .223 and soft point (varmint) bullets because those bullets expand and break up rapidly on minimal resistance and so penetrate LESS than standard pistol rounds, even JHP.
HOWEVER, if the shooter isn't aware of the differences in bullet construction, and thinks "bullets is bullets" and uses FMJ then their results will be vastly different.
And, to a degree this is the case with pistol bullets from carbine barrels, though not exactly the same way. A .357 Mag carbine can drive the 125gr JHP to speeds of 2200fps. (I've done it), and at those speeds the bullet is seriously overdriven. Its going too fast for its intended controlled expansion by several hundred feet per second and tends to act like a small grenade, "detonating" on impact.
Generally the bullet fragments impressively, acting like a varmint bullet, and penetration is low to almost none, compared to that same bullet fired from a pistol. The 158s are heavier built, and hold up a bit better, though they can reach speeds in the 1800-1900fps range, and so penetrate more than the 125s.
And any kind of non-expanding slug (like hard cast SWCs) penetrate like a son of a b..gun...with the added 5-600fps a carbine gives them.
Bullet selection MATTERS.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I have to correct this. The original Box O' Truth is NOT a YouTube channel. It's a blog site, and it's chock full of interesting information if you are concerned (as everyone probably should be) about what happens when a bullet hits a wall:Aguila Blanca said:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/
There is a YouTube channel on which the guy performs barrier testing similar to the original Box O' Truth. I haven't watched enough of his videos to be able to recommend them.
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First Rule of Self Defense: Have a gun.
Jeff Cooper's Addendum: Know how to use it. Owning a violin does not make you a musician.
Only caution I see to using a PCC carbine for home defense is there is the possibility an invader could grab the barrel.
A lever action carbine loaded with 38 Specials or 44 Specials would allow fast follow up shots, the extra weight will dampen recoil.
Jeff Cooper's Addendum: Know how to use it. Owning a violin does not make you a musician.
Only caution I see to using a PCC carbine for home defense is there is the possibility an invader could grab the barrel.
A lever action carbine loaded with 38 Specials or 44 Specials would allow fast follow up shots, the extra weight will dampen recoil.
Same here. They are spendy yet it seems one gets a really terrific quality firearm.
Where practical, a lever action carbine in 357 mag sounds real good for a self defense gun.
I would recommend the 38 sp 158 gr JHP for SD ammo. I ran cases through Quickload and confirmed that at this weight, a regular 38 should be faster out a 16" or 18" than a 357 is out of a snubbie. It will have plenty of power and the combination of longer barrel and 38 power will make for so much less noise / blast.
Full magnums are probably more than you need for most self defense applications. You just do not need the extra noise / blast / penetration unless you are planning to either shoot across a yard or shoot something bigger than the typical 2 legged adversary.
And given that a 357 lever gun is just so much fun to shoot (with either 38s or 357s) is a big bonus. My son recently got a Henry and we are still working through load development with my cast bullets. I think we will end up with a full power 180 for longer range work and a very light 110 gr for plinking. He is not currently planning on using it for SD, but I do have some 38 +P 160 WFNs loaded (for other guns) that would work.
One note is that you need to make sure that the gun is pretty much 100% for feeding your chosen SD ammo. They can be picky and/or need "tuning" to get the reliability needed for SD.
I would recommend the 38 sp 158 gr JHP for SD ammo. I ran cases through Quickload and confirmed that at this weight, a regular 38 should be faster out a 16" or 18" than a 357 is out of a snubbie. It will have plenty of power and the combination of longer barrel and 38 power will make for so much less noise / blast.
Full magnums are probably more than you need for most self defense applications. You just do not need the extra noise / blast / penetration unless you are planning to either shoot across a yard or shoot something bigger than the typical 2 legged adversary.
And given that a 357 lever gun is just so much fun to shoot (with either 38s or 357s) is a big bonus. My son recently got a Henry and we are still working through load development with my cast bullets. I think we will end up with a full power 180 for longer range work and a very light 110 gr for plinking. He is not currently planning on using it for SD, but I do have some 38 +P 160 WFNs loaded (for other guns) that would work.
One note is that you need to make sure that the gun is pretty much 100% for feeding your chosen SD ammo. They can be picky and/or need "tuning" to get the reliability needed for SD.