Remember that a lot of hollow points will lose their jackets at higher magnum velocities. I would be very concerned about keeping a Gold Dot together at 1600 fps. I would think 1200 to 1300 fps would be toward the upper limit for a Gold Dot. I would be pleased to learn otherwise.
Are mid level power 357's worthwhile?
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warningshot
New member
QUOTE: "I've actually shot quite a few 296 loads at night, sure they'll throw out a big fireball that's about as bright as a camp fire it's just not bright enough to impare your vision"
I would agree that a campfire doesn't impare human vision. As for a .35 caliber Anything projectile being launched by W296 gunpowder...under low light conditions...and no human eye imparment...from a revolver...Dang!
Maybe you will be able to fry the target as well with that fireball you mentioned.
I would agree that a campfire doesn't impare human vision. As for a .35 caliber Anything projectile being launched by W296 gunpowder...under low light conditions...and no human eye imparment...from a revolver...Dang!
Maybe you will be able to fry the target as well with that fireball you mentioned.
SP101 3" 125 gr. Win.JHP 20 gr.W296 CCI Magnum primer. Frame posted was taken from a vid clip recorded on a P&S camera at around 10pm the only light is from the muzzle flash. That night we only had a quarter moon. Your definition of a camp fire and what can impair your vision and my definition are clearly different.
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I am not an expert on ballistics but my feelings are that when it comes to pistol cartridges for self defense, foot pounds of energy and velocity are of less concern than optimum penetration performance and reliable expansion. If a mid-level .357 gives you this performance, with less recoil and muzzle blast, I see this as a very viable option.
There is a place. For those who cannot handle the full power loads or do not want to for some reason or other. They still beat any 38 load.
I was issued this load for a couple of years. They NEVER went 1295 FPS from our guns. They were very hard on guns from flame cutting and forcing cone damage, and they had a lot of blast (compared to a 125 full house load). The 110 357 magnum was a dismal failure in general. I saw one textbook shooting with it and it worked splendidly ( 2 shots, light clothing, frontal shot, no cover) BG was DRT. I saw several dogs shot with it and they were unimpressed and ran off, one pit-bull lived years afterwords.
The 115 9mm +P+ is a better round.
I was issued this load for a couple of years. They NEVER went 1295 FPS from our guns. They were very hard on guns from flame cutting and forcing cone damage, and they had a lot of blast (compared to a 125 full house load). The 110 357 magnum was a dismal failure in general. I saw one textbook shooting with it and it worked splendidly ( 2 shots, light clothing, frontal shot, no cover) BG was DRT. I saw several dogs shot with it and they were unimpressed and ran off, one pit-bull lived years afterwords.
The 115 9mm +P+ is a better round.
I wouldn't. They've been documented as holding up surprisingly well out of rifles doing 30-30 energy levels.
The Gold Dot "jacket" is a heavy electroplate coating over the lead. There's no clear boundary where the lead stops and the copper starts...they "intermingle" at the edge. They are VERY resistant to coming unglued at speed and are a near-perfect choice for maxed-out rounds like Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap ship.
The only thing even better at holding together are the best all-copper hollowpoints, esp. those made by Barnes. But it's hard to get them up to the same speeds because you have less case capacity to deal with. Buffalo Bore has made a credible attempt to get all-copper slugs going balls-out but to do so they had to ditch flash-resistant powder, making them much more of a hunting load (for places like Cali with a lead ban) than a personal defender.
re:
I've made points for a long time that there's too much concern with velocity and energy in handgun cartridges intended for self-defense. It's interesting that the .38+P 158 LSWCHP loaded to 900 fps is considered to be a fine SD round...but a .357 LSWCHP loaded 150 fps faster is somehow a waste of time.
I've had conversations with guys who were upset that their .357 125JHP ammo "only" clocked 1395-1400 fps instead of the 1450 that they were promised.
Consider that most people want to carry a smaller revolver than the full boogie .357 cartridge was developed for, attenuated ballistics would seem to be just the ticket. I've often voiced a wish for the ammo makers to market a 158-grain LSWCHP loaded to an honest 1,000 fps from a 3-inch barrel. Energy-wise, it would beat the .38+P counterpart like a drum, as well as any 115-grain 9mm+P+ and still retain a measure of controllability, without the attending ear-ringing blast and blinding fireball that the hot .357 ammunition has a reputation for.
I loaded up a hundred rounds of Speer 158-grain swaged SWCHP bullets to that level in my 3-inch Model 13 with Unique powder. Muzzle blast wasn't disconcerting, and for me, recoil control was right on the peg during rapid doubles at 10 yards...which is at the outer limit for 99% of defensive shootings...and it hits hard.
Anyway...Just my 2% of a buck.
I've made points for a long time that there's too much concern with velocity and energy in handgun cartridges intended for self-defense. It's interesting that the .38+P 158 LSWCHP loaded to 900 fps is considered to be a fine SD round...but a .357 LSWCHP loaded 150 fps faster is somehow a waste of time.
I've had conversations with guys who were upset that their .357 125JHP ammo "only" clocked 1395-1400 fps instead of the 1450 that they were promised.
Consider that most people want to carry a smaller revolver than the full boogie .357 cartridge was developed for, attenuated ballistics would seem to be just the ticket. I've often voiced a wish for the ammo makers to market a 158-grain LSWCHP loaded to an honest 1,000 fps from a 3-inch barrel. Energy-wise, it would beat the .38+P counterpart like a drum, as well as any 115-grain 9mm+P+ and still retain a measure of controllability, without the attending ear-ringing blast and blinding fireball that the hot .357 ammunition has a reputation for.
I loaded up a hundred rounds of Speer 158-grain swaged SWCHP bullets to that level in my 3-inch Model 13 with Unique powder. Muzzle blast wasn't disconcerting, and for me, recoil control was right on the peg during rapid doubles at 10 yards...which is at the outer limit for 99% of defensive shootings...and it hits hard.
Anyway...Just my 2% of a buck.
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Tuner, I hate to tell you but you have some bad information on energy. Info taken from Buffalo Bore's web site.
Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo - 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. --G.C. (1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs.)
9mm Luger +P Pistol and Handgun Bullets Ammo - (+P) 115 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,300 fps/M.E. 431 ft. lbs.)
That being said, energy is only part of the equation. Either will work if properly placed. people spend far to much time obsessing over bullets when they are really only a small part of the total equation.
Shoot that BuffBore 158 +P monster out of a 4" and you really will add another 100fps. At which point per:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
...you're at 424. And even at 350ft/lbs energy that big 158 slug is a scary mofo.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
...you're at 424. And even at 350ft/lbs energy that big 158 slug is a scary mofo.
It is not in the latency of dilation of the pupils that is the primary issue here. When the pupils are open due to low light and you suddenly subject the retina to a much larger dose of light (radiant energy) you can cause oversaturation of the photoreceptors in the retina. This causes the green out effect that people "see" when they get a hit in the eyes by too much light. While your brain and ocular nerves are rebooting you are effectively blind. This is medically well understood and to ignore it is to do so at your own peril.
The light in your picture is in the 2500-3000 with some 3500 Kelvin region present in the fire itself; my muzzle blast is showing more towards 3500-4000 Kelvin. Looking through a bright muzzle flash to your target is not good for your eyes and can impair your vision.
We have a Mod around here who is Professionally more qualified to speak on the physiological effects than any of us. I welcome his input on this subject.
Even going from pitch black (which makes target ID kinda impossible) muzzle blast isn't enough to oversaturate the photorecepters.
if your worrying about a little muzzle flash I better get rid of my Surefire tac light it's 200 lumins lights up the place far more than any muzzle blast.lol
A 158gr .38 Special at 1000 fps might be +P by today's standards but isn't even close to the original "+P" .38 Special, the .38-44 HV, with a 173gr bullet at over 1300 fps from a 4" barrel. Not suitable for small frame revolvers, but it works in a GP-100.
Mid-range .357 loads work quite well for dispatching vermin and pests that might invade your trash or chicken coop.
Mid-range .357 loads work quite well for dispatching vermin and pests that might invade your trash or chicken coop.
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I have used the Buffalo Bore LSWCHP 158 gr 38 +P at the range in my Ruger Police Service Six 4 inch. The recoil is stiff. Its like shooting a mid power 357 magnum. In a self defense situation, I feel this round is more than enough to stop a BG as long as you do your job of shot placement. This round has the penetration, good velocity and because it is a lead semiwadcutter the expansion should be as good as most other slower rounds like Remingtion and Winchester. Only problem is its expense to shoot many for the average guy like me. So I use at the range the CCI Blazer 158 gr 357 hollow point. Good practice round and accurate out of a 4 inch revolver. When I load my Service Six for HD its the Buffalo Bore.
My take,
Howard
My take,
Howard
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
When firing a PPC in the dark it is best to close your non-dominant(submissive?) eye. I imagine this strategy works for 4 inch 357 mag snubs also. I learned Everything I know from Michael Stackpole.
Noise is another thing I find it amusing that people seem to over state. Given that most measurable hearing loss from gunfire's noise is accumulative. Maybe if your getting into a gunfight every other weekend, shooting +P 38s instead of .357s might make some difference after a few years.
Even if you have a medical condition that predisposes you to hearing loss or the gun is fired in such close proximity to your ear for a single shot to cause signifigant damage it is unlikely that it shooting 38 +pinstead of 357s would save your hearing.
Even if you have a medical condition that predisposes you to hearing loss or the gun is fired in such close proximity to your ear for a single shot to cause signifigant damage it is unlikely that it shooting 38 +pinstead of 357s would save your hearing.
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warningshot
New member
Let me get this straight....
When did 38 Special cartridges loaded with 158 grain bullets traveling at 800 feet per second start bounching-off robbers, rapeist and your average run-of-the-mill carjackers and burgulars?
When did 38 Special cartridges loaded with 158 grain bullets traveling at 800 feet per second start bounching-off robbers, rapeist and your average run-of-the-mill carjackers and burgulars?
They're my favorite. Really, the .357 is too much gun for most of my needs, so I carry .38s most of the time, but I never load .357s to the maximum levels anymore. They're too loud, frankly. I like a gun that's enjoyable to shoot at random targets. If I get a quick opportunity on a rabbit or coyote, I don't want to ring my ears with a barnburner.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Without precise measurements of the amount of light energy in a flash from a specific gun - you can't say that it will do X, Y or Z with precision.
However, dilation is not the issue as SHR970 pointed out. Pupil response is about 500 millisec. depending on intensity.
A bright flash will produce a significant afterimage that can impair vision. There are studies that demonstrate this in the human factors literature. There are also neural processed called visual masking that obscure vision after a bright flash. One can do a simple experiment. Dark adapt yourself for 30 minutes. Take a Surefire (like a 9P), look in the mirror and flash at your eyes. You wll get a reflex turn away and a very annoying afterimage.
The statement about noise damage is incorrect. I will repeat something that I said in another thread. There are clear cases of single shot noise damage and damage that doesn't take years to occur. The physiology is well documented. If one continues to post medically incorrect and dangerous information on TFL, your time here will be limited.
However, dilation is not the issue as SHR970 pointed out. Pupil response is about 500 millisec. depending on intensity.
A bright flash will produce a significant afterimage that can impair vision. There are studies that demonstrate this in the human factors literature. There are also neural processed called visual masking that obscure vision after a bright flash. One can do a simple experiment. Dark adapt yourself for 30 minutes. Take a Surefire (like a 9P), look in the mirror and flash at your eyes. You wll get a reflex turn away and a very annoying afterimage.
The statement about noise damage is incorrect. I will repeat something that I said in another thread. There are clear cases of single shot noise damage and damage that doesn't take years to occur. The physiology is well documented. If one continues to post medically incorrect and dangerous information on TFL, your time here will be limited.
Let's be a little realistic here, do we really need any more precise mesuring equipment than our own eyes to tell that there is a difference in intensity between a 60w incandesent bulb an a 9P surefire or that even the large muzzle blast produced by a snub 357 w/ hott 296 loads is much closer in intensity to the 60w bulb than to that of the beam of a 9P.
A more realistic experiment would be to darken a room just enough so that target ID is possible then flip on a lamp with a 60w bulb.