Are Hi-Cap Mags really necessary?

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I think it was only 22,00 rounds per kill. Let me go check my Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War..back in one. I couldn't find it in there. I think it was around 22,000. Let me go check some more books.

Ok you were nearly right! According to Michael Lee Manning's "Inside the Crosshairs, Snipers in Vietnam", there were 25,000 rounds expended per kill in WWII. In Korea is was 50,000 rounds per kill. Vietnam had a 200,000 rounds per kill ratio!

Army and Marine sniper ratio for kills in Vietnam. 1.3 to 1.7 rounds per kill. I hope you all appreciate this research, I spend about 30 minutes on it! I just had to remember. :)
 
Well, since in Vietnam they did some silly things like project estimated casualties per x number of rounds expended, they could hose down defenseless jungle and get a body count. I think half or more of the Vietnam statistics are well-spun BS.

You'll never convince me that having a smaller magazine is a good thing. If that were true, then the Germans, with their 5-rnd Mausers, should have beat the US forces using "wasteful" 8-rnd self loading rifles.
 
- Even if TSHTF, I'm not gonna get in a gun fight. I prefer to evade the bad guys.

You may not have that choice. ...which is kinda the point of having a gun.
 
Pete said: >>People use firepower as an excuse for poor marksmenship.<<

That's their problem, not mine. I am not going to forgo a hicap mag simply because some people are bad shots.
 
George,

I'm not a troll, and if I had known this was going to become a thread on gun rights, I never would have posted it. However, I did post it thinking I could get some intelligent responses.

Reason the question comes up is that although hi-caps are nice, I'm not sure if I would need 10 20rd clips for an M1A.

Why? If I ever had to "run for the hills", I don't think I could carry 10 loaded clips, plus food, plus water and other necessities.

I also agree with dzeanah's statement that taking on a bunch of baddies is the fastest way to lose a fight, no matter how many clips you have. They'll just flank you.

I've never been in the military and I've never shot courses, but I did play paintball competitively and I do know what it's like reloading while someone is shooting at you. Very difficult.

I was just wondering how other people thought on this list.
 
Do-Man said: >>I also agree with dzeanah's statement that taking on a bunch of baddies is the fastest way to lose a fight, no matter how many clips you have. They'll just flank you<<

Tell it to Sgt York. :D
 
York used a bolt action M1917 Enfield (5 shot capacity?) and a seven-shot M1911 pistol to kill/subdue all those Germans! ;)
 
He sure did...and they didn't flank him even with those weapons, which took so long to reload. Think how many Germans he could have killed with a FAL. :D
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Do-Man:

Why? If I ever had to "run for the hills", I don't think I could carry 10 loaded clips, plus food, plus water and other necessities.
[/quote]

And here's the other reason for hi-caps...they are more weight-efficient than smaller magazines. Six 5-rd magazines for an AK are *heavy*...a single 30-rounder is reasonable.
 
Did Sgt. York have a high capacity weapon? No. Did Hatcock use one? No. You guys make it sound like if you don't have a high capacity magazine, your doomed to loose a firefight. Since myself and Do-Man live in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, we will have to improvise. If limited to ten rounds, I won't miss as much. I'll train harder than the next guy. I'll practice my mag changes until it's as natural as taking a dump.

Yeah, I could see that you could get screwed in a 5 to 1 scenario inwhich the BG's have cover and you don't. Or the riot scenario where your driving down the road and a tupperwear party goes sideways. Thousands of people are shooting at your car. Yeah, a high capacity magazine will aid you in fending off two or three before they pull you out and stomp you.

I ain't gonna fight the close in, spray and pray gun battle that you guys are dreaming about. Naw, I'm probably gonna try to avoid that. If I have to, I'll set up somewhere in the bush, a couple hundred meters out and kill ya' without you knowing I was even there. That's the way to stay alive.

The best fight is the one your never in and yes, one shot can equal one kill!
 
Pete, problem with your thinking is, you think you'll be in control of which scenario occurs. You won't. Using your thinking, you will only be prepared a limited set of circumstances. Using my thinking, I can lay back and snipe OR counter multiple opponents up close. That's the beauty of having a gun with hicaps...you don't HAVE to fire them all off, but they're there if you need them.
:)
 
I don't think they are necessary.

But I do think we should be allowed to own them.

How about that- the best of both worlds.
 
The problem with trying to determine if Hi-cap mags are needed is that there are so many different situations and unknown variable to any gun fight. Situation X may require 30 quick shots whereas situation Y may need 3. You never know. I would rather have 20 or 30 shots if needed.

The BIG problem, however, is the slide downhill that this type of question in the wrong hands brings. I know that on this forum, this type of question is fine, but in the hands of some lawmakers, the question becomes, "Are 30 shots really necessary? Are 20? In the old west they used only 6, so why can't we? Since you are only going to use the gun for hunting (since the police will protect you), then why not use a single shot? After all, isn't one shot the goal of hunters?" Etc, etc, etc. And yet again, the liberties that our forefathers (and depending on your age, maybe your peers) died for erodes until it is unrecognizable.

Okay, stepping off my soapbox now . . .

:)

[This message has been edited by beastman (edited May 02, 2000).]
 
I think this is a great post! Let's face it, hicap mags haven't really improved anything. The average shootout is still less than 4 rounds. But look at what has happened to LEOs since the advent of wonder nines. What is the average hit rate for them? Bet it is much worse than when they were issued 6 shooters! The "spray and prey" idea has been furthered by the use of hicaps.

Now I'm not saying that ALL shooters are effected by the "spray and prey" mentality, but many are, just go down to the local range and watch a while...
 
Gino, that is what is called in the field of logic the "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" fallacy. Yes, cops shoot more rounds now. Did getting guns with hicap mags make them worse shots? Or, more likely, would these cops be bad shots ANYWAY despite what gun they were using?
Ever hear about any of the actual gunfights in the Old West, when most people only had five rounds per gun? They took place at an absurd distance of perhaps six feet or less, both parties usually emptied their weapons and usually no one was hit.
Spray and pray has been with us since the beginning of the repeating firearm, and higher capacity doesn't cause it, it merely better exposes it.
 
I keep a 20-round magazine in my AR15 because it is handier than the 30-rounder. If I am lucky, it won't take any shots to solve a problem (.223 indoors is hell on ears)...otherwise, six 30-rounders ought to help (two belt pouches). For the AK, my choices are 5, 30 or 75 and I pick 30 plus one spare. Even M1 carbine (15 rounds, no spares until I get a stock pouch or put extras in my pockets) is almost usable. By contrast, a typical hunting rifle holds four to seven rounds and re-loads are the same amount and generally pretty slow for tube or blind magazines. When SHTF, trying to deal with more variables than necessary distracts from survival.
 
Rik, would you feel under-gunned with a Springfield Armory M1A .308 equipped with 10 round magazine? Can you improvise and use that weapon to it's fullest to survive if you have to?

This is my point, any gun will do if you will!

Hey Rik, I'm full of these old timer' sayings. Old habits and tactics die hard with devil dogs.
 
Take the vehicle senario. You pop the driver, one shot, one kill and very nice. Next, guys start piling out of the back and begin to deploy. Another 19 or 29 rounds at this point would be mighty nice, even if it's just to suppress while you get the f out of there.

I think mag capacity is definately a case where more is better (except to the point of becoming unweildy).
 
I should probably state that in no way do I condone the ban on Assault Weapons or Hi-Capacity magazines. In Kalifornia, we can no longer purchase pre-ban mags. We can't even trade or lend them to friends or family members! With this in mind, myself and other Kalifornians will have to IMPROVISE. I asked Rik if he would feel undergunned with a 10 round M1A. I wouldn't, because I am confident of my skills. I do not deny that hi-caps serve a very important purpose. However, one should place marksmenship and tactics before capacity.
 
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