Are Handgun Weapon Lights Being maligned?

Huh?

Sounds to me like that quacker "Dr." Lewinski is running of at the mouth about something he obviously knows nothing about. Only thing good I saw in that article was that he listed erroneous assumption #1 as #1...Once you read that Officers can't be trained to keep their trigger finger off the trigger you automatically know that he doesn't know jack about the subject. I was a street cop for 25 years and have now been retired for 16 years and I STILL keep my finger off the trigger. If a Cop alibied an ND by saying he thought he was turning on the flashlight he was in the same gutless group who always seems to say, "I thought it was unloaded."
 
Looks like there was typing going on between between the time I started typing and hit the "reply" button on my last post. The phone call in the middle just aggravated it more. :)

That's just my point. Under the duress of an imminent, potentially-deadly encounter I do NOT want my gun, or for that matter my flashlight, pointed at the ceiling. Yes, there may be a time when both of them need to be pointed at the person in question.
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Yea, thats pretty much my feeling too.

I sometimes think that for some, range safety rules have been so beat into their heads that common sense gets pushed out when it comes to certain things. In these cases, this isnt the range, and some of the normal safeties have been removed and you should be in a different mode at this point.

If I bolt them together, I relinquish the ability to decide which and when. If I've got a light on my belt I can do that.
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I agree, but I can see having both in some cases.

I normally dont have one on a gun I carry, and as I said earlier, I mosty use mine for little critter duty, if its a bear instead of a coon, I'll probably have bigger worries at that point. :)

Having two tools to do the same jobs in different situations IMO takes up (for lack of a better term) more available memory. And provides a new level where something can go wrong. For example... An Officer is searching for a dangerous subject and wants to use his pistol light. The pistol light fails. It's human nature to try and get it to work... Time Wasted. Then he has to transition to his Other light... more time wasted. Time with the officers mind buried in something other than the threat. It may only be seconds...
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Thats a very good point. KISS really is the best thing if you can keep to it. Its hard if youre a gadget person though. :)

Another issue I have with pistol mounted lights is they provide a perfect target. If a perpetrator wants to shoot a policeman he's only got to aim at the light and will probably get a head shot.
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Wouldnt this be more of a "use" thing, and how you were taught to use the light? If you always have the light on and stay in one place, I can see your point. But if youre using the light intermittently, and moving after each "flash" (if you flash at all), you wont be where the light was. I realize you can be limited sometimes as far as movement goes, but you can generally go off line somewhere
 
Equipment determines training, training determines what tactics may be used, and the real world determines which tactics are successful in any given situation.

A light on a handgun, like a "safety" on a trigger, can and is safe and sucessful for many people, many,many times per day. That being said, I don't think either of them is a particularly good idea. And that is because when things do go wrong, they tend to go wrong badly.

Training (and we are talking about proper and sufficient training) varies in effectiveness with the individual. Recently a case was settled where an officer shot (and killed) a man in the back, because he "thought" he drew his TASER and actually was holding his firearm. Certainly he was trained to recognize the difference, but when it came down to it, obviously did not.

A light on a handgun, regardless of switch placement carries different risks than a separate light. They can be very useful, and are used safely all the time. But when not used absolutely correctly, I feel the level of risk is hugely increased. One can make valid arguments either way, and find real world examples supporting both sides, but personally I always wonder how we managed all those years when the only way a light got mounted on a firearm was with duct tape.

I think the ariticle referenced was "aimed" in the wrong direction. The problem is guns being fired when they are not meant to be fired. The light switch doesn't fire the gun, the officer does. One may argue that a particular placement/design of the switch might increase the odds for confusion, but I don't see it being able to create the confusion to begin with, that comes from the individual officer and how they react.

Doesn't saying that "we should avoid using..." a particular design (when other people apparently manage well enough) really just saying "we can't train the five thumbed apes we hired to an acceptable level of safety"?

One has to wonder.
 
Any tool can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Untrained hands are usually dangerous for any tool. Learn how to use your tool before use is implemented.
 
AK

Thank you for your response.

You have some interesting points. Please keep in mind I'm speaking from experience, more than theory.

Again... If an when an officer/operator use his gun mounted light to make a shot he becomes a perfect target. In a confrontation armed, or otherwise quite often the winner comes down to witch combatant makes the first, or most unforgivable mistake. I'll give some anecdotal information supporting my position.

Back in the late 60's and 70's there was a few groups who considered themselves revoloutionaries. One group in particular the B.L.A. (black liberation army) Took it upon themselves to ambush, and kill uniformed policemen. They killed or wounded 8. During the investigation detectives, and FBI arrested most of them, and raided safe houses. In one safe house was found some training material. Manuals on how to kill police officers. Two methods stic with me today, and will for the rest of my life. One was to draw imaginary lines between the officers chest shield(badge), and the shield on their hat. Aim for where those two lines intersect. The other was in darkness, or low light to aim for the beam of the officers flashlight.

As far as turning the light on and off as you move... One your still a target when it's on. But now your eyesight is compromised, and you never really adjust to the bright light of the flashlight, or the ambient light.

If a person isn't disciplined enough to maintain proper safe handling of a firearm. They may want to re-visit their priorities. I think the Dr Lewinski's conclusion's are more for Tommy tactical, mall ninja, wannabe, CDI factor whores, and gadget freaks.(I admit I am a gadget freak). It's easy... as someone in the forum once said... "BOOGER HOOK OFF THE BANG BUTTON"
Is this Dr any relation to Monica? (sorry I couldnt resist)

Glenn D.
 
I resisted lights on guns for years. The same with Night Sights, Lasers, and various other tools that can be a help or a hinderance, depending upon how one applies the tool.

I have a Weapon Mounted Light on my 1911 that I carry, and ask myself why it took me so long to accept them. Along with the WML I also carry a handheld flashlight, and that is what I use to illuminate things. The WML comes in to play only after I have verified that there is indeed a threat that may need a lead injection. The same with the light on my AR and Shotgun. They are used in the same manner.

I think many of the issues regarding WML's are training issues. To say that an officer is incapable of keeping his or her finger off the trigger in a stressful situation is, IMHO, HOGWASH! I say that from personal expirience. I think part of the problem is in the manner in which the use of the WML is taught. I activate the WML using my support hand thumb only.

This leaves the trigger finger free to do what it is supposed to do, be able and ready to manipulate the trigger on a moment's notice. Trying to do too many task, be it with the finger, or the whole body, tends to increase the liklihood of an accident happening. Thus, "Trigger finger is for shootin' "


While simple, it seems to work for me, but then I'm a simple guy.

Biker
 
I think Biker nailed it.:cool:
My thoughs are:
1.Are you going to tell me that 2 incidents among the hundreds of thousands of WML's in use every day actually account for a hardware issue??

2. Compare these numbers to the accidental discharges that happen each day NOT attributed to WML's; then tell me its the lights.

3. A friend and co-worker was a department instructor for slightly more than 6 years. In that time he reports being covered by unskilled officers at least a dozen times and watching poor handling on dozens if not hundreds of other occasions. Now if a percentage of your cops can do this on the range with no threat, what are they gonna do when there is one???? This is a training/personel issue. Not a light issue?

By the way, if the threat groups trained to shoot at lights using a seperate flashlight and weapon in any of the popularly taught methods............what difference does having it on your weapon matter????

Didn't Jeff Cooper (who I both admire and disagree with vehomently) assign the grades of A,B, C, and D to all LEO's and the weapons they should be allowed to carry? Maybe we should just do a better job of grading them before we give things more complicated than a club to the "five fingered apes" that we all know are hired each day.
 
Well, if you have both hands near each other, and use index fingers to do different tasks, there is an increased risk of sympathetic response. Off hand thumb vs. strong-hand index finger won't offer the same risk.

The big advantage to pistol mounted lights is that you can fire from a two-handed position. I know I am about 200% better in speed and accuracy from ISO than from strong-hand only. As to ceiling/floor floodlight tactics, I found that while dry firing. :o (That thing is really darn bright!) I prefer practicing searches from the high-ready or position 3 of the 4-step drawstroke, so the TLR-1 works for that. (I do not do room clearing/searches for a living, but I have taken several classes on the topic.)

IMO, the situation should drive the tactics. The tactics should drive the equipment. (i.e. if you do team clearing, practicing from the SUL position would be logical, and illuminating the ceiling would not work from SUL.)
 
I think weapons lights make excellent targets, but they don't really go far enough. I am working on a battery back pack with an extension that will hold a neon sign above the officer's head and an arrow pointing down with a flashing message reading "COP! SHOOT HERE"!

The only decision I now have to make is whether the arrow and the letters should be bright red or a shining orange. Maybe I could make them red and green for Christmas time.

Jim
 
I am working on a battery back pack with an extension that will hold a neon sign above the officer's head and an arrow pointing down with a flashing message reading "COP! SHOOT HERE"!
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Crimson Trace already beat you to it. :)
 
My thought is generaly in support of weapon mounted lights for this one big reason. Shooting a pistol one handed is not as fast or accurate(unless your doing bullseye one handed were speed is irrelevant). Lets take me for example. When i shoot one handed, my time to aim and fire is drasticly slower then with a 2 handed hold. 1handed.. blam..................blam.............blam.
2 handed blam blam blam blam blam.... For me 2 handed is just far faster and more accurate. I hope im making sense here. I have yet to find a way to make 1 handed shooting faster.

That is why i support a weapon light. It allows you the ability to have a good 2 handed hold which as stated above allows for better gun controll and faster more accurate shots.

I have tried holding my light in one hand and shooting with the other, and just cant get a reasonable ROF with a decent accuracy.

Now im sure with alot more training i could get my one handed shooting up to the point were my rof and accuracy match my 2 handed shooting but why take training time away from what i do best? Lastly TO have a good ROF with a one hand hold, id have to gimp my ammo. Id have to go from proven 158grn +P and go down to lighter weight bullets to reduce recoil. Again im not willing to gimp my ammo just for less recoil.

So for me, the reasons to use a weapon light far out weight any cons of such a device.

Edit to add, i dont have a raild gun any more, I now only have a revolver so i have no choice but to practice on handed shooting....
 
Shooting a pistol one handed is not as fast or accurate(unless your doing bullseye one handed were speed is irrelevant). Lets take me for example. When i shoot one handed, my time to aim and fire is drasticly slower then with a 2 handed hold. 1handed.. blam..................blam.............blam.
2 handed blam blam blam blam blam.... For me 2 handed is just far faster and more accurate. I hope im making sense here. I have yet to find a way to make 1 handed shooting faster.
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Practice, my friend. I had to force myself to 're-learn' shooting one handed and informal bullseye shooting is a good place to start. I then applied it to various stages of my qualification course and found that after some practice, I could shoot it about as well as two handed, including the 25 yard stage. Fate sent me a 'pop quiz' awhile back and one-hand shooting was fast & accurate enough under stress.
 
I think weapons lights make excellent targets, but they don't really go far enough. I am working on a battery back pack with an extension that will hold a neon sign above the officer's head and an arrow pointing down with a flashing message reading "COP! SHOOT HERE"!
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If you think this then you are not properly trained or have not seen an officer that is properly trained at using a light. The light is not meant to be left on during encounters or building searches. It is meant to momentarily illuminate an area to identify possible threats. If a threat is identified then the light MAY remain on depending on the situation. At this point the threat will already know your location as you will be giving commands, etc. I use a WML on my service pistol and have yet to have a problem where I would have been in danger of a ND. I use a thumbs forward grip and use my support hand thumb to activate the momentary switch on the back of my TLR-1.

If I had a pressure switch under the trigger guard it still would not give an excuse for a ND. I believe (even though I don't know details) that some officers will find things to blame their ND on so that it does not fall back on them. Either way it is an accident, but blaming a light is no good. If you have something like a light or laser then maybe you should hit the range and get some training in to better prepare yourself in a high stress scenario.

I have seen several occasions of unsafe firearms handling, do not think for a second that all officers are gun nuts. Lots of them are, but lots of them do not remove their weapons but two times a year for qualifications. I shoot about 3000 rounds a year out of my service pistol and service rifle. I know some who shoot more than that, just depends.

WML have their places, but if you do not train with them... they CAN become a liability.
 
Alright, seriously now....

I bought an XD45 with a rail months ago...I bought it because I wanted a high capacity .45 with a mounted light.

I came to some kind of senses weeks ago, and removed the light and put it back in it's box..Seriously, not everyone or everything that NEEDS light to be seen better needs a .45 pointed at it as well.

That's why I just have my Fenix tac light with it if something goes bump in the night and for night time carry.

HOWEVER

I will use the XD45 with my TLR-1 mounted light during a post hurricane situation in Miami where people tend to be ridiculous and have fun looting and robbing. Everyone in my opinion that's coming onto my property deserves to have a .45 pointed at them.

and for a zombie apocalypse :P

But for regular home defense a flashlight with a .45 behind it is just not the best thing if you have a lot of family in your home.


Worst case scenario's tactical mounted light is great.

Other than that, they can be separate.
 
If you think this then you are not properly trained or have not seen an officer that is properly trained at using a light. The light is not meant to be left on during encounters or building searches. It is meant to momentarily illuminate an area to identify possible threats. If a threat is identified then the light MAY remain on depending on the situation.
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I second that too, forgot to cover that...For duty it seems very well and for SWAT, military etc. All is good.

Worst case scenarios.
 
Sarge said:
Practice, my friend. I had to force myself to 're-learn' shooting one handed and informal bullseye shooting is a good place to start. I then applied it to various stages of my qualification course and found that after some practice, I could shoot it about as well as two handed, including the 25 yard stage. Fate sent me a 'pop quiz' awhile back and one-hand shooting was fast & accurate enough under stress.
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What kind of stance are you using?
Generally speaking, physics would show that a two-handed grip will manage recoil better than a one-handed stance.
 
I just shove the gun at the target, at whatever angle it presents itself, and shoot until it stops bothering me ;)
 
Can't you just point (With light on) the gun around a corner and do a looky loo? Your light is in sight, but your 90% person is undercover except just peaking around the corner.

If they shoot towards the light. Your not being shot at directly, but maybe your gun, light, and your arms are, but, not you directly. Yet you still have to have a peaky boo advantage point at your perceptive target AKA BG.
 
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