I own a couple. Two in 5.56 and one in 6.8SPC. No issues. You could pose your question to any gun platform if you so desired. Are AKs really that bad? How about the SKS? I'm satisfied with my AR platforms. I suppose you could build your own inexpensive AR and come up with an unreliable POC that gives you nothing but trouble. I've read a lot about that type of AR15. Most factory rifles are reliable and pretty darned accurate right out of the box. I hunt with two of mine and the third is used for personal defense.
are ar 15s really that bad?
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Marquezj16
New member
Yes, they are horrible guns. Don't buy one. 
Trying the reverse psychology approach.
Trying the reverse psychology approach.
snakestrikeace
New member
I am not a fan of the AR-15 and I have done my fair share of shooting it, but it is for reasons entirely other than reliability (a long standing family bias 
), I just prefer my mini-14 cause I have a soft spot for that garand action. And that being said I have read the whole thread and agree completely as long as you keep it clean like any good rifle and feed it good ammo it should be fine. Also pay extremely important attention to what everyone is saying about magazines. Buy only good quality magazines and not cheap aftermarket crap, and the weapon will cycle perfectly. The AR is a fine rifle in its own right It just comes down to if it is what you feel comfortable shooting go for it, just as long as you aren't being dragged in by hype.
), I just prefer my mini-14 cause I have a soft spot for that garand action. And that being said I have read the whole thread and agree completely as long as you keep it clean like any good rifle and feed it good ammo it should be fine. Also pay extremely important attention to what everyone is saying about magazines. Buy only good quality magazines and not cheap aftermarket crap, and the weapon will cycle perfectly. The AR is a fine rifle in its own right It just comes down to if it is what you feel comfortable shooting go for it, just as long as you aren't being dragged in by hype.The only thing I've heard bad is the old military M16s would jam sometime and under heavy fire the barrels would warp severly. If ARs weren't so expensive, I'd own one. But a good AR is expensive. I'd love to have one in .308 but there's no way I'd buy the .223 version. I hate that caliber, just not my thing. I ended up buying an AK47 and love it. Shot probably 500 times and cleaned it after around 300 rounds. I didn't even clean it when it was new. No jams what so ever and it's only fired the $5 stuff from walmart and 2 boxes of $8 hollowpoints that really don't expand by the way. I paid less than $500 for it new and no complaints.
When I was in the USMC in the late 70s the M16A1s would jam up on a regular basis. For years I swore I would never own a POS AR platform gun. A year or so ago I started to shoot a few of the new ones, and they have vastly improved over the last 30 years. So much so that I am now eating my words and paying off a Colt Match Target HBAR I put on layaway a couple of weeks ago.
GringoLoco
New member
I've never had a modern AR-15 jam on me. Not once. The few times I saw it happen at the range every single time it was bone dry. I shot a little Breakfree into the action and they were back up and running the rest of the day. My M-16 I qualified with in USAF basic training jammed every third round or so, but I suspect it was dry too, and they didn't trust us flyboys to lube them. Hell, we didn't even get to clear out own jams on a timed qualification. :/
tahunua001
New member
ok I have not read the entire post and apologize ahead of time for any duplicate info.
you've been talking to idiot AK47 chest thumpers. dont get me wrong I own 2 ARs and 1 AK so here is were a lot of that garbage lies.
it's an unreliable jamomatic P.O... uh... stuff.
in vietnam the us military made modifications to the original stoner design which ruined reliability on the original M16s. they later refined it so in the last 30 years there has not been a serious issue with the M16 or it's civilian little brothers.
the only way to get a good AR is to get a colt and you can buy 2 aks for that price.
rock river arms, daniel defence, adams arms, spikes tactical, DPMS, Bushmaster(just a name brand version of DPMS), remington(a namebrand DPMS), LMT, Stag Arms, smith and wesson, and Palmetto State Armory(high quality milspec) all make decent to very high quality rifles. some people have had bad experiences with DPMS but I haven't seen a single QC deficient gun manufactured by them in the 3 years I've been looking at them.
many of the AKs you see are not true AKs but rather a bunch of mix and match polish, romanian, chinese, yugoslavian(current day Croatia), egyptian, and bulgarian parts mated to an american reciever with a number of american parts mixed in. I have a romanian AK that at this point is pretty much 80% american and 20% Romanian. if they are really Russian, they had to undergo extensive conversion just to look like an AK. my romanian AK has jammed about 25 times in the 700-ish rounds I've put through it, my DPMS AR15 has never jammed with 1000 rounds through it. many shooters will attest that these numbers are barely breakin numbers but neither the AR or any AK ever manufactured has a recommended breakin period so in theory they should operate with equal levels of reliability from round 1 to round 75,000.
you have to clean it every time you look at it wrong.
true, the stoner design allows a lot of gunk to get in your chamber while an AK keeps it a lot cleaner. I will however say that the AR is designed to run with much more lube than other rifle designs. if it is jamming a lot, spraying a bit of ballastol or remoil in the chamber will free it up enough to shoot well for another few magazines. if you clean it after every few hundred rounds then you have nothing to worry about.
an ak on the other hand, many shooters(myself included) in an ever persistent quest to save a few euros buy up surplus ammo. it's cheaper than anything else out there. only problem is it's corrosive so even if you shoot a single round you have to strip the gun down, run hot water through it to dissolve the salt and then give it a thorough cleaning and lubing... and I found out the hard way with mine...chrome does NOT make your gun rustproof.
the 5.56 is a underpowered round and your a waterhead for not getting a real mans round like 7.62x39.
true, the AK47 has more stopping power than the AR at short ranges but that stopping power comes at the cost of accuracy and range. the AR is able to hit a paper plate at 400 yards+ while an AK has trouble with that task at 100. past 200 yards you are happy to get minute of sedan accuracy with an AK47. past 120 yard your average 55gr 5.56 bullet exceeds the stopping power of a 123gr AK47 round.
do not be discouraged in your quest for PSA AR15. it will serve you just fine.
you've been talking to idiot AK47 chest thumpers. dont get me wrong I own 2 ARs and 1 AK so here is were a lot of that garbage lies.
it's an unreliable jamomatic P.O... uh... stuff.
in vietnam the us military made modifications to the original stoner design which ruined reliability on the original M16s. they later refined it so in the last 30 years there has not been a serious issue with the M16 or it's civilian little brothers.
the only way to get a good AR is to get a colt and you can buy 2 aks for that price.
rock river arms, daniel defence, adams arms, spikes tactical, DPMS, Bushmaster(just a name brand version of DPMS), remington(a namebrand DPMS), LMT, Stag Arms, smith and wesson, and Palmetto State Armory(high quality milspec) all make decent to very high quality rifles. some people have had bad experiences with DPMS but I haven't seen a single QC deficient gun manufactured by them in the 3 years I've been looking at them.
many of the AKs you see are not true AKs but rather a bunch of mix and match polish, romanian, chinese, yugoslavian(current day Croatia), egyptian, and bulgarian parts mated to an american reciever with a number of american parts mixed in. I have a romanian AK that at this point is pretty much 80% american and 20% Romanian. if they are really Russian, they had to undergo extensive conversion just to look like an AK. my romanian AK has jammed about 25 times in the 700-ish rounds I've put through it, my DPMS AR15 has never jammed with 1000 rounds through it. many shooters will attest that these numbers are barely breakin numbers but neither the AR or any AK ever manufactured has a recommended breakin period so in theory they should operate with equal levels of reliability from round 1 to round 75,000.
you have to clean it every time you look at it wrong.
true, the stoner design allows a lot of gunk to get in your chamber while an AK keeps it a lot cleaner. I will however say that the AR is designed to run with much more lube than other rifle designs. if it is jamming a lot, spraying a bit of ballastol or remoil in the chamber will free it up enough to shoot well for another few magazines. if you clean it after every few hundred rounds then you have nothing to worry about.
an ak on the other hand, many shooters(myself included) in an ever persistent quest to save a few euros buy up surplus ammo. it's cheaper than anything else out there. only problem is it's corrosive so even if you shoot a single round you have to strip the gun down, run hot water through it to dissolve the salt and then give it a thorough cleaning and lubing... and I found out the hard way with mine...chrome does NOT make your gun rustproof.
the 5.56 is a underpowered round and your a waterhead for not getting a real mans round like 7.62x39.
true, the AK47 has more stopping power than the AR at short ranges but that stopping power comes at the cost of accuracy and range. the AR is able to hit a paper plate at 400 yards+ while an AK has trouble with that task at 100. past 200 yards you are happy to get minute of sedan accuracy with an AK47. past 120 yard your average 55gr 5.56 bullet exceeds the stopping power of a 123gr AK47 round.
do not be discouraged in your quest for PSA AR15. it will serve you just fine.
I can care less about parts compatibility during a TEOTWAWKI scenario, but I suppose that is why I have and love my Vz.58.
If you want the best of both worlds, buy a piston AR. I've done all my Internet research and I'm saving up for a PWS MK116. It might be as expensive as a high-end AR, but it's built like one too.
When faced between a gun that is easy to clean vs one that is a bit harder, I'll take the former every time, even if it cost a little more. Over the life of the gun, that money is easily recovered in time. But this is just my opinion of course.
If you want the best of both worlds, buy a piston AR. I've done all my Internet research and I'm saving up for a PWS MK116. It might be as expensive as a high-end AR, but it's built like one too.
When faced between a gun that is easy to clean vs one that is a bit harder, I'll take the former every time, even if it cost a little more. Over the life of the gun, that money is easily recovered in time. But this is just my opinion of course.
I am most upset over the procurement of the M16 rifles. Just read “The Gun” by Chivers http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/0743270762. It is disgusting to read how the Military Industrial Complex puts profits above everything. It was so repellent reading the history of the M16 procurement that I felt like throwing the book across the room . It is a tale of greed: the lives of good American Soldiers are tradable in the Corporate quest for obscene profits. Beneficiaries are the Military sock puppets who receive promotions and post employment opportunities and the Congressmen who receive Corporate contributions creamed from Defense contracts.
This situation is the same now as it was then.
(How many Marines have to die to get an Osprey to fly?)
However after hundreds of millions of additional tax payer funds, Colt was able to tinker around the edges and make the M16 a mechanically reliable platform, but was never able to fix the fundamental flaws of the M16.
I consider DI one of the fundamental flaws of the M16.
However, direct impingement mechanisms add, and add considerable to the fouling, by venting directly into the mechanism. DI’s are always going to more dirty.
Comparison of fouling levels was interesting to me:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_126/...SR_35___gas_system_retrofit_range_report.html
AR's will always be more maintenance heavy than non DI actions, but given careful and constant cleaning, a well built AR is a mechanically reliable firearm.
As for HK91’s, 308 rifles have about twice the powder charge of a .223 so you would expect more fouling. The roller bolt is a very successful action, there are a few countries that are actually manufacturing variants of HK91’s and issuing them to their militaries. Pakistan is one, just look at what they carry. They make them locally. I have seen Mexican troops with HK91’s but I don’t know where they got them. What weapons Armies buy with their own nickel is quite revealing. Yes, there are a lot more users of the M16 platform with its DI, but those are countries that are getting their M16’s free from the American tax payer.
Not counting Mexican Drugs lords who get their AR's direct from the BATF.
This situation is the same now as it was then.
(How many Marines have to die to get an Osprey to fly?)
However after hundreds of millions of additional tax payer funds, Colt was able to tinker around the edges and make the M16 a mechanically reliable platform, but was never able to fix the fundamental flaws of the M16.
I consider DI one of the fundamental flaws of the M16.
All semi auto mechanisms unlock when there is residual breech pressure, this is to lengthen the amount of time energy is available to function the mechanism. This causes some fouling to be blown into the mechanism.
However, direct impingement mechanisms add, and add considerable to the fouling, by venting directly into the mechanism. DI’s are always going to more dirty.
Comparison of fouling levels was interesting to me:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_126/...SR_35___gas_system_retrofit_range_report.html
AR's will always be more maintenance heavy than non DI actions, but given careful and constant cleaning, a well built AR is a mechanically reliable firearm.
As for HK91’s, 308 rifles have about twice the powder charge of a .223 so you would expect more fouling. The roller bolt is a very successful action, there are a few countries that are actually manufacturing variants of HK91’s and issuing them to their militaries. Pakistan is one, just look at what they carry. They make them locally. I have seen Mexican troops with HK91’s but I don’t know where they got them. What weapons Armies buy with their own nickel is quite revealing. Yes, there are a lot more users of the M16 platform with its DI, but those are countries that are getting their M16’s free from the American tax payer.
Not counting Mexican Drugs lords who get their AR's direct from the BATF.
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Today's AR15's are not the same as your Grandfather's M16. The bugs have been worked out and just about any build that isn't "junk" is very reliable.....they are still made out of recycled beer cans and coke bottles, but at least civilians can use them to fire rounds other than the 5.56 varmint round.
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150434894994724
Another reason why i've yet to buy anything but BCM.
Another reason why i've yet to buy anything but BCM.
coondogger
New member
My deer rifles are far more accurate than my AR-15 but they are nowhere near as fun or cheap to shoot.
Seems to me that, theory aside (and even then theory is less gunk vs additional moving parts) reports on TFL from DI and piston AR owners have not shown any significant differences in reliability.
Does anybody have any thorough studies to cite, re: DI vs Piston AR reliability?
Does anybody have any thorough studies to cite, re: DI vs Piston AR reliability?
tahunua001
New member
the funny thing about this is that more people have problems with piston ARs than DI ARs.
people spend hundreds of dollars to get a system that makes it so they don't have to clean as often but a piston requires a very specific amount of gas to operate so you have to readjust it every time you change ammo. this causes more issues with reliability than any shooter should ever experience from a dirty gun.
I'd much rather spend $40 dollars a year on cleaning supplies than $600 for a piston and all the headaches that goes with it.
just do a search on TFL my piston ar is FTE/jamming vs my AR is FTE/jamming
piston ARs are a fairly new concept and yet they are rapidly gaining ground on malfunctions.
the only thing about a piston ar is it is more tolerant to being immersed in mud and water.
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coondogger said:
On a regular basis bolt rifles are far more accurate but you'd be astonished at some of the groups some professional gunsmiths are producing with custom 7.62 ARs. Ga precision for instance, their GAP-10 shoots like a bolt gun. My mk12 when i run it correctly which has become a challenge for me will hold sub-MOA.
tahunua001
New member
jsut by dropping in a better trigger I pushed my 5.56 AR into sub MOA groups... semis can push sub MOA with the right ammo/twist rate and a good trigger.
Hoping my Geissle coming in has that affect on me. Apparently fundamentals are different with ARs. I've shot my best groups with a friends lower using his 2 stage RRA trigger. I've shot my worst and most inconsistent groups using my standard mil spec trigger that is for my 14.5"
compglock17
New member
. I have never seen a problem in the ARs that either I own or that are issued to us. The only exception is when the guys keep their gun dry or use grease on them. I have been convinced, after many years as a police carbine instructor, that the AR is a "thirsty" gun and I keep mine nice and wet! During multiple day trainings, motor oil has been used and it moves, as oil is designed to do, all the junk out and the weapon functions fine! IMHO, keep it wet and you’ll be fine!
on them. I have been convinced, after many years as a police carbine instructor, that the AR is a "thirsty" gun and I keep mine nice and wet! During multiple day trainings, motor oil has been used and it moves, as oil is designed to do, all the junk out and the weapon functions fine! IMHO, keep it wet and you’ll be fine!- Status