are ar 15s really that bad?
- Thread starter marlinm60ss123
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Yep they are junk.. and terrible... and a waste of money. DI sucks, and never works. I spend 5 minutes shooting.. only to spend 5 hours cleaning..
Do yourself a favor and don't buy one.... you will keep the inflation of the price down so I can afford more for myself only because I love the torment of owning them.
The military has used them successfully.. and will continue to do so... but the guys in the black helicopters told me that the only reason our military uses them is because they like to torment their troops with hard to clean rifles.
I shot about 600 rounds through mine yesterday... I guess I will need to take a weeks worth of vacation time just to clean it.
Do yourself a favor and don't buy one.... you will keep the inflation of the price down so I can afford more for myself only because I love the torment of owning them.
The military has used them successfully.. and will continue to do so... but the guys in the black helicopters told me that the only reason our military uses them is because they like to torment their troops with hard to clean rifles.
I shot about 600 rounds through mine yesterday... I guess I will need to take a weeks worth of vacation time just to clean it.
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I have been shooting M16s since the mid '70s in the military and to the best of my recollection, I have never had one jam, ftf, fte, stovepipe or any other of the so-called common problems with them. Of course we kept them clean and oiled. I have an AR15 now with Osprey Defense gas piston kit and the only time it has failed to do anything properly is when I tried too light a handload in it or too heavy a buffer. In other words the only times it has ever given me a problem was due to something that I personally caused. My AR loves Wolf ammo. It is very accurate and has never malfunctioned in any way. Now if I can just get my handloads dialed in I will be good to go.
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I run mine dry, but I use EEZOX, and I have had no problems what so ever. My 1911's get dirtier than my AR does.. yet my AR see's more rounds. People really need to man up and quit crying about a little carbon here or there really.
Read SWAT's article on BCM's Filthy 14 if you want to see what a DI rifle can really handle.
Mag's are the bigger issue than carbon build up. Cheap or damaged, or ill fit mags will cause most problems. I only use Pmags with mine, not that they are the only ones that are good.. but they are the best bang for the buck imo.
Read SWAT's article on BCM's Filthy 14 if you want to see what a DI rifle can really handle.
Mag's are the bigger issue than carbon build up. Cheap or damaged, or ill fit mags will cause most problems. I only use Pmags with mine, not that they are the only ones that are good.. but they are the best bang for the buck imo.
Don't get me wrong. I have no problems with DI. I wouldn't have bought an AR if I did. I just came across the Osprey kit at a good price and decided to give it a try. I did find an article written by an armorer for a large police dept. who was running the Osprey system who claimed he had a test gun with over 10,000 rounds thru it without cleaning anything but the bore and still had no failures. Wish I could find that, it was an interesting article, wonder if it was true?
While Bravo Company does make great products so does Palmetto. I've bought and have friends who have bought various PSA components and two complete rifles. Nothing any of us have bought from them has caused anyone any issues.
I'd buy without hesitation from Palmetto State again.
I'd buy without hesitation from Palmetto State again.
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compglock17
New member
I notice that myself and others are saying keep the gun wet and you wont have problems, while others are saying they keep it dry and they have no problems. Kinda says to me that the is not as "problematic" a weapon system as some would like you to believe! Just like every other type of gun out there, there are companies selling garbage that I’m sure don’t work worth a darn! Buy on reputation and quality and take care of it...you’ll be fine and Ill be happy to welcome you to the “crazy, black gun loving, freak” club!
I have ran mine soaked... wet.. and dry. I shoot my AR's a lot, and quite often. Generally I maintain it with EEZOX, and every 5000 or so rounds.. I break it all down, bring it to work with me.. and use the parts washer in the gun smith's room. I just stick it in there.. over night... let it dry... then coat everything in EEZOX again... and it has never let me down.
You don't even need a parts washer for what I do.. I used to do the same thing at home with a large rubber made container.. and a cleaning solution of your liking.
If you follow the lubing points of a AR-15 manual. It will be fine, I use EEZOX which is meant to dry, and I can honestly say it works for me.
I have personally had more trouble with AK's than I ever had AR's. That is not a dis towards the AK.. I like them as well... but I think people tend to overplay both rifles as far as what it will and wont do.
As for gas pistons... for the money, I don't see the point.... all it solves is a few minutes of cleaning. That and I have PERSONALLY seen carry tilt problems start to damage parts.
The problems you generally hear of are 1 of 2 things.
1) Older men who were there in Vietnam.. who had the M16, who had the ammo that was made with the wrong powder for the gun, who felt it was unreliable.
2) People who have little to no experience... repeating what they heard a person from category 1 say.
Then we have guys like Kraig on this board... who will sing the AR's praises to the high heavens, when he was part of category 1.
They aren't as problematic as people might have you believe.
You don't even need a parts washer for what I do.. I used to do the same thing at home with a large rubber made container.. and a cleaning solution of your liking.
If you follow the lubing points of a AR-15 manual. It will be fine, I use EEZOX which is meant to dry, and I can honestly say it works for me.
I have personally had more trouble with AK's than I ever had AR's. That is not a dis towards the AK.. I like them as well... but I think people tend to overplay both rifles as far as what it will and wont do.
As for gas pistons... for the money, I don't see the point.... all it solves is a few minutes of cleaning. That and I have PERSONALLY seen carry tilt problems start to damage parts.
The problems you generally hear of are 1 of 2 things.
1) Older men who were there in Vietnam.. who had the M16, who had the ammo that was made with the wrong powder for the gun, who felt it was unreliable.
2) People who have little to no experience... repeating what they heard a person from category 1 say.
Then we have guys like Kraig on this board... who will sing the AR's praises to the high heavens, when he was part of category 1.
They aren't as problematic as people might have you believe.
I have never had a failure with my Sabre Defense AR, or any M16 or M4 with which I have had to qual.
I had one failure with a private range-owned AR during a class - an apparent sear disconnect failure as the gun went full auto as long as the trigger was held back. That one was immediately pulled from service and sent to the gunsmith for repairs.
I haven't even had a failure with an M16 when using blanks and a BFA.
Granted, my net round count in ARs is only somewhere between 1000 and 1500, but I have had no problems other than the one sear disconnect on a heavily used range gun.
I had one failure with a private range-owned AR during a class - an apparent sear disconnect failure as the gun went full auto as long as the trigger was held back. That one was immediately pulled from service and sent to the gunsmith for repairs.
I haven't even had a failure with an M16 when using blanks and a BFA.
Granted, my net round count in ARs is only somewhere between 1000 and 1500, but I have had no problems other than the one sear disconnect on a heavily used range gun.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Slamfire said:
Careful and constant cleaning?
15,000 rounds of Wolf through a Model 1 AR with no cleaning by TFL's own MisterPX
Filthy 14 - cleaned once in 31,000 rounds
15,000 rounds through M4, 7 stoppages
M4 completely stripped of lubrication runs 2,400 rounds with no lube, no cleaning, and no stoppages
The idea that ARs need constant cleaning to be reliable is right up there with the tooth fairy and the easter bunny for myths.
Have you noticed the boom in AR sales? Seems every gun manufacturer is building one and independents are popping up everywhere. If the platform was so problematic the market for them would have dried up years, even decades, ago. A good AR is reliable, accurate, and just plain fun to shoot. Buy a good brand and enjoy. Clean when done for the day just like you would any firearm.
An M-Anything in a combat environment which has been allowed to languish uncleaned for any length of time --especially after heavy firing-- will get you killed.
.......Believe me.
You must at least wipe the bolt/carrier components free of carbon deposits, using only spit and the shirt-tail of your ACUs if that's all you have, especially the bolt pivot pin.
You might get away without it once or twice, but the carbon that blows itself clear on a clean bolt surface, exponentially cakes up on one left dirty to harden in place.
The M16/M4 family is a marvelous design that marries up accuracy, lightness, and building-block flexibility as no other weapon base in history. But like a good woman who will have your back in thick & thin, for richer or poorer, in sickness & in health and against all enemies -- even when abused -- a single rose and a note of appreciation every once in awhile will stave off disaster.
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I have to sort of question about wiping it down. The filthy 14 is a prime example, 31,000 rounds straight without a failure that was due to fouling. Sure they had extractors wear out, and replaced bolt carriers, because well parts degrade with use. While the filthly 14 wasn't used in combat i would honestly think it's condition was just as bad if not far worse then what the rifles in combat encounter.
The EWL is pretty impressive also.
The EWL is pretty impressive also.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Absent something like a dust storm, the main reason for combat infantry to clean more frequently is not because the rifle needs to be cleaned that frequently to function but so you can inspect parts for wear and tear so you can replace problem parts BEFORE they fail. This is the main reason to frequently clean any rifle; but the point isn't to scrape the finish off internal parts or polish metal bare a la the "white glove" school of thought. It is to remove filth so you can see developing stress cracks, small chips, dull extractors, etc. that are the actual problem. This is even more important with an issue rifle in unknown condition with an unknown number of rounds through it and that has a high probability of poor maintenance practices at some point in the past.
Now, if I was in combat or keeping the rifle for self-defense, I'd clean the rifle after I use it just to make sure I've got the best odds I can. I'd also clean the rifle before storage if it was going to be sitting for six months before I shot it again, because I don't want to assist corrosion and powder residue can store moisture.
However, if you are shooting regularly, an AR doesn't need to be cleaned regularly to function reliably. Even with suppressor usage, you'd need thousands of rounds and an extreme firing schedule to get carbon caked up to the degree it would affect function. When I was shooting monthly, I'd let rifles go six months or more with no cleaning, and I'd clean then because it was making everything it touched filthy, not because I was having function problems.
Now, if I was in combat or keeping the rifle for self-defense, I'd clean the rifle after I use it just to make sure I've got the best odds I can. I'd also clean the rifle before storage if it was going to be sitting for six months before I shot it again, because I don't want to assist corrosion and powder residue can store moisture.
However, if you are shooting regularly, an AR doesn't need to be cleaned regularly to function reliably. Even with suppressor usage, you'd need thousands of rounds and an extreme firing schedule to get carbon caked up to the degree it would affect function. When I was shooting monthly, I'd let rifles go six months or more with no cleaning, and I'd clean then because it was making everything it touched filthy, not because I was having function problems.
I have managed to jam up practically every rifle and handgun in my arsenal,,including Glocks and AK47's mostly due to bad ammo and magazine problems and the greatest problem of all,,,me,,,as I clean my firearms once or twice a year and shoot the heck out of them...I have nothing but respect for Pat Rogers but let's get the story straight on Filthy 14 and quit misquoting the article,,,please correct me if I am wrong as I will be man enough to admit it...also do not get me started on COP Keating or Operation Anaconda,,,so are AR's reliable,,,yes in my opinion,,,especially semi auto rifles not dumping out magazine after magazine on full auto,,,
Do AR's Jam
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I have nothing but the highest respect for Pat Rogers, he and his students probably fire more rounds through AR's than most combat soldiers.
I have his article on Filthy 14 sitting in front of me. The rifle filthy 14 is a Bravo Company rifle a very high quality rifle, and I quote from the article.
"Received carbine in late 2008"
"March 2009, malfunction reduced with immediate action, bolt wiped down 6450 rounds"
"May 2009 several failures to extract, extractor spring replaced at 13,010 rounds, far beyond normal extractor spring life under these conditions"
"June 2009 two bolt lugs broke at 16,400 rounds, replaced BCG. Considering firing schedule, within normal parameters."
"November 2009 several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds shooter gave field cleaning replaced extractor and extractor spring."
"28905 rounds finally cleaned Filthy 14"
"30000 rounds several failures to extract, replaced extractor spring and wiped down BCG"
AR'S are reliable especially our semi auto civilian versions, the first versions had failures in Viet Nam and more recently google up "Operation Anaconda" and the "Battle at Wanat" here the failures were probably due to running magazine after magazine on full auto, and who could blame them, the first Rangers ambushed after their Chinook had been shot down, the second a small group of Paratroopers being overrun by 200 or more insurgents.
I wish someone as professional as Mr. Rogers would run carbine classes with all types of rifles, AR'S, AK'S, FAL, M1A, HK91, etc, etc, it would be interesting to see how they all stack up.
Note,,,first malfunction at 6450 rounds,,,many of us will never put that many rounds through our AR's,,,second malfunction at 13010 rounds,,,at lets say 25 cents a round,,,that is $3252 in ammo costs,,,how many of us will spend that much or shoot that much who are commenting on AR reliability?
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Do AR's Jam
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I have nothing but the highest respect for Pat Rogers, he and his students probably fire more rounds through AR's than most combat soldiers.
I have his article on Filthy 14 sitting in front of me. The rifle filthy 14 is a Bravo Company rifle a very high quality rifle, and I quote from the article.
"Received carbine in late 2008"
"March 2009, malfunction reduced with immediate action, bolt wiped down 6450 rounds"
"May 2009 several failures to extract, extractor spring replaced at 13,010 rounds, far beyond normal extractor spring life under these conditions"
"June 2009 two bolt lugs broke at 16,400 rounds, replaced BCG. Considering firing schedule, within normal parameters."
"November 2009 several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds shooter gave field cleaning replaced extractor and extractor spring."
"28905 rounds finally cleaned Filthy 14"
"30000 rounds several failures to extract, replaced extractor spring and wiped down BCG"
AR'S are reliable especially our semi auto civilian versions, the first versions had failures in Viet Nam and more recently google up "Operation Anaconda" and the "Battle at Wanat" here the failures were probably due to running magazine after magazine on full auto, and who could blame them, the first Rangers ambushed after their Chinook had been shot down, the second a small group of Paratroopers being overrun by 200 or more insurgents.
I wish someone as professional as Mr. Rogers would run carbine classes with all types of rifles, AR'S, AK'S, FAL, M1A, HK91, etc, etc, it would be interesting to see how they all stack up.
Note,,,first malfunction at 6450 rounds,,,many of us will never put that many rounds through our AR's,,,second malfunction at 13010 rounds,,,at lets say 25 cents a round,,,that is $3252 in ammo costs,,,how many of us will spend that much or shoot that much who are commenting on AR reliability?
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I'm tired of people saying their AR jams all the time. Firstly, magazines (make sure you buy quality) and improper cleaning cause the VAST majority of the malfunctions in the AR platform. Unless you're in a protracted firefight, chances are it's your fault your AR is malfunctioning. The primary candidate is that the user isn't cleaning the barrel extension correctly (you really have to get into it with a chamber brush, & q-tips), or that they haven't disassembled the bolt carrier to clean the bolt itself. LUBE EVERYTHING. The AR has alot of really tight fitting parts, and needs to be maintained. It is not an AK-47. That being said, it's more accurate than your stock AK. I've been fortunate enough to never have mine take a dump on me in combat, but then again I always cleaned my M4 daily. To be fair, I've had a number of failures to feed, which I traced back to bad magazines. Replace any mag if it fails on you once.
If you're worried about malfunctions, try a piston driven variant. It takes the traditional gas tube out of the mix, and uses a piston instead. No gunk in the receiver, no fouling in a tiny little tube to clean, really nice. Still have to get into that star chamber though. Absolutely love mine, makes cleaning a breeze.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
If you are the type of guy who doesn't put any time into weapon maintainence, then dont bother, you'll end up hating your misfiring, gunked up rifle. If you can take care of a rifle, and do it often, you'll love your reliable AR platform's accuracy, and ease of use.
If you're worried about malfunctions, try a piston driven variant. It takes the traditional gas tube out of the mix, and uses a piston instead. No gunk in the receiver, no fouling in a tiny little tube to clean, really nice. Still have to get into that star chamber though. Absolutely love mine, makes cleaning a breeze.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
If you are the type of guy who doesn't put any time into weapon maintainence, then dont bother, you'll end up hating your misfiring, gunked up rifle. If you can take care of a rifle, and do it often, you'll love your reliable AR platform's accuracy, and ease of use.
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Plenty good closing post...
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