AR-15 The Most Versatile Rifle Ever???
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George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Turk - I was in the service too.
While I dont agree with everything Mad Dog says - I agree with him about the AR series rifle.
Hog Wash it aint.
While I dont agree with everything Mad Dog says - I agree with him about the AR series rifle.
Hog Wash it aint.
Turk,
"This NVA was lifted back to the hospital with our WIA’s. It must have been real hairy operation taking that round from his chest. "
NVA, loaded with grenade, being transported and then operated
with lots of risk to every American involved???
Did you actually witness that personally or it's a story?
"This NVA was lifted back to the hospital with our WIA’s. It must have been real hairy operation taking that round from his chest. "
NVA, loaded with grenade, being transported and then operated
with lots of risk to every American involved???
Did you actually witness that personally or it's a story?
I wasn't sure I was going to chime in here but what the heck.
Versatile as in one "gun does it all", not switching uppers, not adding stocks or accurizing or free floating the barrel.
NO gun is that versatile.
My AK goes bang everytime but I don't expect it to be a sniper rifle and since its a .223 its not much of a deer gun either.
My 30-06 bolt gun is a hell of a elk rifle but I wouldn't dream of 'clearing a house' with it. In fact there is a far better chance at me shooting a 1000 yard match than clearing a house.
A milspec m-14 is NOT a mil spec M21 sniper rifle.
A mil spec M-4 doesn't have the velocity of a full sized rifle.
You have different tools in your tool box for a reason. Use the appropriate tool for the job.
Now lets face it when your government hands you a rifle you don't really have much choice and you 'make do' with what they give you. In WW2 that could be everything from a bolt action Springfield to a BAR. Sure a tommy gun was a great cqb weapon but at 200 yards it wasn't hitting anything. A carbine was never intended to be a front line weapon but it went everywhere in 3 wars. The M1 wasn't "the best" CQB rifle but it sure did a lot of CQB.
Military weapons development has been moving in this direction for years. You don't see regular troops with the array of weapons that were used in ww2. You see a single weapon and a machine gun. In that case the AR, AK, Galil, FAL, AUG, FN-MAS are all moving the same direction. They are all "sort of" filling these roles at once and in doing so aren't the "best" overall in any one field. The modern assault rifle is the weapon of a 'generalist' not a 'specialist'. Any modern assault rifle should fit the bill.
As far as the criteria you selected started with the exception of the 1000 meter match a mini 14 can fit the bill, but again your average out of the box rifle isn't a 1000 meter rifle either.
So is the ar the best? No but its a good compromise, the same as a lot of other modern paramilitary rifles.
on to part 2.. Yes there are a lot of parts available. There are far more parts available for amreican made weapons than imported ones. There are far more add ons available. Doesn't make them better or worse makes them available. Do you carry a spare parts roll? You know firing pin, a spring here and there?
Most of us aren't in law enforcement and we aren't in the military. If our rifles break we can go back to the truck and get another.
If you are in a shooting situation (ie people are shooting at me), I'd want a rifle that won't break and something to back it up with.
Whatever that rifle is to you, there are a lot of choices some more expensive than others. Pick one you trust and it can fill the role if it "has to".
Versatile as in one "gun does it all", not switching uppers, not adding stocks or accurizing or free floating the barrel.
NO gun is that versatile.
My AK goes bang everytime but I don't expect it to be a sniper rifle and since its a .223 its not much of a deer gun either.
My 30-06 bolt gun is a hell of a elk rifle but I wouldn't dream of 'clearing a house' with it. In fact there is a far better chance at me shooting a 1000 yard match than clearing a house.
A milspec m-14 is NOT a mil spec M21 sniper rifle.
A mil spec M-4 doesn't have the velocity of a full sized rifle.
You have different tools in your tool box for a reason. Use the appropriate tool for the job.
Now lets face it when your government hands you a rifle you don't really have much choice and you 'make do' with what they give you. In WW2 that could be everything from a bolt action Springfield to a BAR. Sure a tommy gun was a great cqb weapon but at 200 yards it wasn't hitting anything. A carbine was never intended to be a front line weapon but it went everywhere in 3 wars. The M1 wasn't "the best" CQB rifle but it sure did a lot of CQB.
Military weapons development has been moving in this direction for years. You don't see regular troops with the array of weapons that were used in ww2. You see a single weapon and a machine gun. In that case the AR, AK, Galil, FAL, AUG, FN-MAS are all moving the same direction. They are all "sort of" filling these roles at once and in doing so aren't the "best" overall in any one field. The modern assault rifle is the weapon of a 'generalist' not a 'specialist'. Any modern assault rifle should fit the bill.
As far as the criteria you selected started with the exception of the 1000 meter match a mini 14 can fit the bill, but again your average out of the box rifle isn't a 1000 meter rifle either.
So is the ar the best? No but its a good compromise, the same as a lot of other modern paramilitary rifles.
on to part 2.. Yes there are a lot of parts available. There are far more parts available for amreican made weapons than imported ones. There are far more add ons available. Doesn't make them better or worse makes them available. Do you carry a spare parts roll? You know firing pin, a spring here and there?
Most of us aren't in law enforcement and we aren't in the military. If our rifles break we can go back to the truck and get another.
If you are in a shooting situation (ie people are shooting at me), I'd want a rifle that won't break and something to back it up with.
Whatever that rifle is to you, there are a lot of choices some more expensive than others. Pick one you trust and it can fill the role if it "has to".
Well, I'm fairly new to firearms (less than five years), but I will say that I find it pretty dang neat that I can take off my 20" Bushmaster upper that I can use for everything from hunting to plinking to 200 yd. military-rifle competitions to target shooting and replace it with my M4 upper that weighs in 2 lbs less, and use IT for tactical competitions and as a good ranch rifle.
I hereby recant!
What I said about the AR being a useless POS was wrong.
To wit:
I suppose that if you had a brush attachment for it, the AR WOULD be great for washing hogs.
Whether you use it for stroking or stoking (per Turk) the butt of the AR is ideal............. for those that appreciate its pathetic design and shoddy materials.
The .223 is an ideal caliber for combat........ so long as you have enough ammo to shoot everything several times, and are close enough to what you are shooting at to keep the bullets from bouncing off....
Aluminum is corrosion resistant, so it is an ideal material for the AR receivers.
It was the ideal weapon for Vietnam......... a war we were never intended to win.
It is the ideal weapon for the "Modern American Soldier".
It is the ideal weapon for a lot of people.............. just NOT ME!
(or other rational, clear thinking types that prefer reliability to "versatility")
What I said about the AR being a useless POS was wrong.
To wit:
I suppose that if you had a brush attachment for it, the AR WOULD be great for washing hogs.
Whether you use it for stroking or stoking (per Turk) the butt of the AR is ideal............. for those that appreciate its pathetic design and shoddy materials.
The .223 is an ideal caliber for combat........ so long as you have enough ammo to shoot everything several times, and are close enough to what you are shooting at to keep the bullets from bouncing off....
Aluminum is corrosion resistant, so it is an ideal material for the AR receivers.
It was the ideal weapon for Vietnam......... a war we were never intended to win.
It is the ideal weapon for the "Modern American Soldier".
It is the ideal weapon for a lot of people.............. just NOT ME!
(or other rational, clear thinking types that prefer reliability to "versatility")
Oris,
This isn’t a buddy story. My Battalion was working out of a Fire Base named LZ UpLift in the Phu My district of Dhin Bhin province time period was early May 1969. My Battalion was a Mechanized Infantry unit. We were mounted ½ time dismounted the other. We were working any area south of Bong Son called the beach lots of sand dunes and fishing villages. The mission was for my platoon which consisted of 4, 113 APC’s which were configured in a ACAV fighting unit 1-50 cal mounted in the commanders hatch and two M-60’s on each side to move to a village named Xuan Thanh along the South China Sea and search for NVA that were supposed to be there. We moved to the ville with the rest of the company staying at ready at our night defensive position which was a couple clicks away. We spaced the four tracks on the high dunes above the village. The Plt. Leader would take the 2nd and 3rd squads of a sweep of the village 2 /3 squad’s driver and 50 gunner would stay with the tracks, my squad the 1st and the 4th would stay with the Plt. Sergeant on the tracks for a reaction force. The NVA were placing bubby traps out as the guys were making the sweep and which the guys hit. The NVA started tossing frags in at them. When the firefight began the 3rd squads M-79 man moved along side of a hooch and as he turned walked into an NVA soldier. He hit him in the head with butt of the 79 and moved back while the NVA was stumbling around and popped round into his chest. I was then ordered to leave two men with a 60 at the position where our track was and move to the SE of the village and sweep toward the ambush sight as this was happening the company in total was responding. I made the sweep finding no NVA. The 2nd squad leader, which was a very good buddy, was a mess hit multiple times with shrapnel, (today he’s on 100% disability). The others had taken one hit each.
During this action the Plt. Leader, 2nd and 3rd Squad Leader and a rifleman were WIA. One NVA was KIA and two WIA the one WIA that was hit with 16 fire was in real bad condition. The 1st Dust Off flight took our people out and came back for the NVA including the KIA. I assume they operated on the two wounded NVA.
I never saw the actual 40 round sticking but was told it was sticking out of the NVA’s chest by the shooter and the other guys involved. When the Dust Off came for them we were searching the village looking for other NVA. Looking at the KIA and WIA NVA was not on the top of the priority list.
Actually the 40 round is pretty safe to be around since it had only traveled 10-15 feet before hitting the soldier. If I remember right it takes about 45-50 feet for flight for the round to be activated to explode. d
That’s the story and the M-16’s worked perfectly as hard as it is to believe for some on this board that want a real mans rifle. Bu t then my experience only comes for 364 days in country. You know guys you can talk all you want but where does it end. I've seen a soldier hit with a 50 cal. round and still able to fight or maybe we need something bigger?
Turk
This isn’t a buddy story. My Battalion was working out of a Fire Base named LZ UpLift in the Phu My district of Dhin Bhin province time period was early May 1969. My Battalion was a Mechanized Infantry unit. We were mounted ½ time dismounted the other. We were working any area south of Bong Son called the beach lots of sand dunes and fishing villages. The mission was for my platoon which consisted of 4, 113 APC’s which were configured in a ACAV fighting unit 1-50 cal mounted in the commanders hatch and two M-60’s on each side to move to a village named Xuan Thanh along the South China Sea and search for NVA that were supposed to be there. We moved to the ville with the rest of the company staying at ready at our night defensive position which was a couple clicks away. We spaced the four tracks on the high dunes above the village. The Plt. Leader would take the 2nd and 3rd squads of a sweep of the village 2 /3 squad’s driver and 50 gunner would stay with the tracks, my squad the 1st and the 4th would stay with the Plt. Sergeant on the tracks for a reaction force. The NVA were placing bubby traps out as the guys were making the sweep and which the guys hit. The NVA started tossing frags in at them. When the firefight began the 3rd squads M-79 man moved along side of a hooch and as he turned walked into an NVA soldier. He hit him in the head with butt of the 79 and moved back while the NVA was stumbling around and popped round into his chest. I was then ordered to leave two men with a 60 at the position where our track was and move to the SE of the village and sweep toward the ambush sight as this was happening the company in total was responding. I made the sweep finding no NVA. The 2nd squad leader, which was a very good buddy, was a mess hit multiple times with shrapnel, (today he’s on 100% disability). The others had taken one hit each.
During this action the Plt. Leader, 2nd and 3rd Squad Leader and a rifleman were WIA. One NVA was KIA and two WIA the one WIA that was hit with 16 fire was in real bad condition. The 1st Dust Off flight took our people out and came back for the NVA including the KIA. I assume they operated on the two wounded NVA.
I never saw the actual 40 round sticking but was told it was sticking out of the NVA’s chest by the shooter and the other guys involved. When the Dust Off came for them we were searching the village looking for other NVA. Looking at the KIA and WIA NVA was not on the top of the priority list.
Actually the 40 round is pretty safe to be around since it had only traveled 10-15 feet before hitting the soldier. If I remember right it takes about 45-50 feet for flight for the round to be activated to explode. d
That’s the story and the M-16’s worked perfectly as hard as it is to believe for some on this board that want a real mans rifle. Bu t then my experience only comes for 364 days in country. You know guys you can talk all you want but where does it end. I've seen a soldier hit with a 50 cal. round and still able to fight or maybe we need something bigger?
Turk
Jamie Young
New member
AR HATERS CLUB PART VI
ACT II
TAKE II
Roll Film
ACT II
TAKE II
Roll Film
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Okay, chilluns, lighten up. Take a Valium. It won't necessarily ease the pain, but you just won't give a darn.
The issue is versatility, not whether or not the AR-15 is a quality weapon. Specific accuracy, comparative reliability, yada-yada-yada is not the subject of discussion. This stuff has been beaten to death just way too many times, already.
A glorious Fourth of July to everyone,
Art
The issue is versatility, not whether or not the AR-15 is a quality weapon. Specific accuracy, comparative reliability, yada-yada-yada is not the subject of discussion. This stuff has been beaten to death just way too many times, already.
A glorious Fourth of July to everyone,
Art
Perfect Rifle
I am no expert on rifles and I don't play one on TV. But this is my idea of the perfect rifle. Mine is 30-06 but I am looking into a .308 barrel and possibly 25-06.
http://www.sigarms.com/sigarmsweb/sauer_rifles.htm
OK, so I won't be clearing buildings with it.
George, those ads for the H & K guns are probably going to cost me a lot of money
Geoff Ross
I am no expert on rifles and I don't play one on TV. But this is my idea of the perfect rifle. Mine is 30-06 but I am looking into a .308 barrel and possibly 25-06.
http://www.sigarms.com/sigarmsweb/sauer_rifles.htm
OK, so I won't be clearing buildings with it.
George, those ads for the H & K guns are probably going to cost me a lot of money
Geoff Ross
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
he he he - you and me both.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
MAD DOG, you probably don't even need AP!
Now, I'd agree that a BAR is a bit heavy for walking hunting, but outside of that it's pretty versatile.
, Art
"Close combat is an '06 at 500 yards."
Now, I'd agree that a BAR is a bit heavy for walking hunting, but outside of that it's pretty versatile.
, Art"Close combat is an '06 at 500 yards."