Anyone using Vihtavuori N140, N-150 powder needs to read this : -

Never used the VV powders to date, so can't comment on this issue with it.

That said though, I have seen and had this issue with some IMR 4831 powder loaded and stored for a period of time. I've also had it happen with some W-540 as well.

When I found this years ago I decided then that I would not load anything to be stored over about a years time. If I can't shoot it up, I figure I don't need to be loading that much.
 
"That right?
Please explain that statement and provide the supporting equations to back it up.
I have shot fifty year old ammunition without any issues whatsoever so I fail
to see how the Laws of Physics selectively apply."

I THINK where he was going with it is that by its very nature, smokeless is an unstable chemical composition and essentially starts to decay from day one.

Stabilizers and neutralizers are commonly added to powders to increase their shelf life, but those are available in finite quantities.

Once they are used up, the powder starts to decay and its chemical and ballistic properties can become extremely random, ranging from becoming less and less potent over time to becoming so unstable that its burn rate can increase significantly to the point of causing over pressure.

One of the long-time members here has posted numerous US military laboratory test data that shows how this can happen to powders. It has caused me to rethink how I approach old military surplus ammunition.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think VV was sold to a French company? I don't know the year though. Was the formula changed?
 
I THINK where he was going with it is that by its very nature, smokeless is an unstable chemical composition and essentially starts to decay from day one.
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I understand that Mike but the statement was that it was not a VV problem,
my point is that even though all powders must eventually lose integrity this
particular VV product breaks down in a shorter period of time than many other
powders so it is a VV problem.
 
I don't think we are dealing with premature breakdown here. If anything, the corrosion might be a result of an extra-heavy shot of preservative they gave it to extend life. When I was emailing VV they stressed how they make bang-stuff for their nations military, which may be stored for a long time under adverse conditions. Consider two cases:
A guy at the show I do was trying to sell some old German 6.5 X something, neat old boxes with Gothic lettering, but the necks of half of them were split. I think they were from the 1920s or 30s. He wanted an arm and a leg but I wanted the bullets, and after they sat on his table for years he took my offer. I got the bullets and alao some powder that looked fine, a long thin stick-type. I fooled around with it and it closely matched an IMR I was using and I used it no problem. I called it Sam's Small Stick, didn't realize he would be a little miffed when he heard that - no offense Sam. Anyway, another time I found some old cartridges my Dad had kept, Italian milsurp dated 1930s, also split necks. There was no powder inside, only yellow/brown dust. I made a little pile, held a match to it, it finally started to smolder like punk and then phitt! That is what happens when powder deteriorates. So I believe the N 140 the guy in the pictures and I used was soaked with some magic juice and bottled before it had dried out properly, and that is what attacked our brass and bullets.
 
I THINK where he was going with it is that by its very nature, smokeless is an unstable chemical composition and essentially starts to decay from day one.
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I understand that Mike but the statement was that it was not a VV problem,
my point is that even though all powders must eventually lose integrity this
particular VV product breaks down in a shorter period of time than many other
powders so it is a VV problem.
Click to expand...


The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that is breaking down from the day it was manufactured, to become a low energy molecule. Anyone who has taken thermodynamics will realize that this is obvious, everything is breaking down to a lower energy state, including you. Many live in a state of denial, a combination of they are immortal and their ammunition is therefore immortal. but somehow, shooters have been lulled into thinking that the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to our sport and of course, it does not apply to them.

Other brands of gun powder go bad. This does not look like Vihtavuori powder.




Accurate Arms 4064 that I purchased in 1994 is going bad. It is causing corrosion in the case. I pulled these bullets and the bottoms have a surface corrosion that can be felt.



I have AA2520 that I bought in the mid to late 90's that is also going bad. If either of these powders are left in the case for years, case necks crack or come off. This was loaded with AA2520, loaded Nov 2002. When I fired it last year in a Garand, I had a lot of these cases lose their case necks because the gunpowder was outgassing nitric acid gas and that had attacked the brass.



Let me emphasis the effect of confirmation bias in this thread. A total dismissal of evidence that brands other than Vihtavuori also go bad. I am certain someone saw this notice, which was in the American Rifleman, and other gun magazines, about IMR 4007 going poof in the box. It is my recollection that IMR 4007 came into the country in 2007. So these powder lots are at most, eight years old.

http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/2/product-recall-notice-imr-4007-ssc-powder/

by SSUSA Staff - Wednesday, September 2, 2015
Product Recall Notice: IMR 4007 SSC Powder
IMR Legendary Powders has announced a product safety warning and recall notice for IMR 4007 SSC on the six lot numbers listed below. Find your lot number on the side of your bottle as in the below photo.
•10130139
•10131139
•10429139
•10430139
•80425139
•80426139

IMR has received reports that this particular powder in 1 lb. and 8 lb. containers may have become unstable due to possible rapid deterioration. Use of this product from these lot numbers shown on the enclosed label may result in spontaneous combustion, fire damage or possible serious injury. IMR suggests that anyone who has this product should cease using it immediately! Fill the powder container with water which will render the product inert and safe for disposal.

Contact IMR directly for more information:

IMR Powder Company, 6430 Vista Drive, Shawnee, KS 66218, email help@imrpowder.com, imrpowder.com, call 1-800-622-4366 or 913-362-9455 and fax 913-362-1307.
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Thanks for the eye-opener, I am truly astounded. I was using powders my dad bought in the 40s and 50s into the 1990s, cronographing my loads, and I never detected a problem. I was sad to use the last of the AL 5 from the vintage can because I never found anything as good for 357. I will be checking my powders carefully and regularly from now on.
I still believe my theory on the VV N 140 problem. The 375s that turned their bullets green were loaded from the fresh and stinky bottle , lot 875/98 00055 140998. I am still using that bottle and there is a very slight and normal odor and I have had no further problems.
 
Gunpowder has a shelf life. The shelf life of gunpowder is unpredictable, some lots fail within years, other within decades. But gunpowder fails. Early in the last century the storage lifetime of smokeless powders was considered to be 20 years or less:

Army Ordnance Magazine, June 1931, page 445 says:

“Smokeless powder constitutes one of the greatest hazards from a storage standpoint, due to the fact that it is subject to deterioration and at the best cannot be expected to have a life greater than about twenty years…….Master samples of all lots of smokeless powder are under constant observation in the laboratories at Picatinny Arsenal. Should any of these samples indicate rapid deterioration, notification is given at once, and steps are taken to use this deteriorating material within a very short period, if possible, or else withdraw it from service.”

Federal says their ammunition has a ten year shelf life:
Federal Ammunition :
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx
What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?
Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.
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At the end of its shelf life, gunpowder will blow up your gun, and it will burn your house down if it is stored in bulk. Like those 1lb and 8 lb kegs the stuff comes in.

This is worth reading to understand the process:


Dec 2003 Propellant Management Guide:

Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to
decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.

As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.


Actually there are only a few compounds used as stabilizers, and as the Propellant Management Guide tells us, stabilizers are consumed with age.

This is a good reference on stabilizers,

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF IPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.
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http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf


You should always inspect and sniff test your old gunpowder. If it seems bitter, like ammonia, get the stuff out of your house, or this will happen to you:

Old Powder Caused Fire!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=788841
________________________________________
First, sorry for the long post. Second, if I didn't know the people this happened to I would have a hard time believing this, I'd probably call this BS. I hunt at a property owned by someone I used to work with. All I have is his email address. I have been trying to contact him for several weeks via email. He lives over an hour a way and I hadn't tried to catch him at home yet. I finally got hold of him the other day. He apologized for not getting back to me sooner, but he had a house fire and had been dealing with that since the beginning of the month.

I drove there today. There was a trailer set up for his family to live in while the house gets restored. His wife was there when I got there. I asked her what happened. I couldn't believe her answer. Apparently my friends brother gave him about 15 pounds of gun powder for reloading about 10-15 years ago. It never got used. Sorry, I don't know what kind of powder it was. Their daughter just got out of the shower in the room next to where this powder was stored. She heard a WOOOOSH sound and came out of the bathroom to find the place in flames. It started where the old powder was stored.

Luckily, they were able to keep the fire down for a few minutes with an extinguisher and the fire dept responded in about 5, but there was some serious damage. I saw the spot where the powder was kept and the floor all around it charred, the rest of the place sustained heat and smoke damage. They were lucky they were home and someone got on this almost immediately or the place would have been a total loss. The BIL had some more of this powder at his home, he dumped it outside and lit it off. I'm sure he didn't know it would have made good fertilizer.

There was no other suspected cause of this fire than spontaneous combustion of this old gun powder. Has anyone heard of old un-stable gun powder just going up like this? I've got probably 20 pounds of powder in the next room and I'm sure many of you have more than that. After hearing this, I'm going to make sure it all gets used or at least smelled now and again if it sits for a few years. Green grass beats a burned home!
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And yes, gunpowder follows the laws of thermodynamics.
 
And yes, gunpowder follows the laws of thermodynamics.
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The platitude of the thread and when gun powders prematurely break down it
gets conveniently blamed on the old flow of entropy,ignoring that this inevitable flow can be slowed down by placing a wall between the systems,this wall is otherwise known as quality materials and proper storage.
 
And yes, gunpowder follows the laws of thermodynamics.
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The platitude of the thread and when gun powders prematurely break down it
gets conveniently blamed on the old flow of entropy, ignoring that this inevitable flow can be slowed down by placing a wall between the systems, this wall is otherwise known as quality materials and proper storage
Click to expand...

You have it so figured out. Just make ammunition out of good materials, not those nasty materials they now use. And of course, store it properly. Amazing how the militaries of the world have not figured that out. You ought to submit a written proposal to the Department of Defense on how you can fix their problems and cut scrap costs by at least half with this novel approach. DoD roughly scraps $1.2 Billion a year in old munitions, but due to your brilliance at solving this issue, you could extend the munitions shelf life way, way out there.

Maybe you could convince them they can get rid of all those QASAS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Ammunition_Center_(United_States) That would sure save a lot of money on salaries, health benefits, you name it.
 
You have it so figured out. Just make ammunition out of good materials, not those nasty materials they now use. And of course, store it properly. Amazing how the militaries of the world have not figured that out. You ought to submit a written proposal to the Department of Defense on how you can fix their problems and cut scrap costs by at least half with this novel approach. DoD roughly scraps $1.2 Billion a year in old munitions, but due to your brilliance at solving this issue, you could extend the munitions shelf life way, way out there.

Maybe you could convince them they can get rid of all those QASAS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defens...(United_States) That would sure save a lot of money on salaries, health benefits, you name it.
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Is there a point to this rant?
 
I have lots of powder--probably more than I should considering I'm not getting out to test and fire as much as I used to.

I was curious about the aging thing--and noticed that only some of the older Alliant 1 lb'rs have any kind of date on them--about 95% of everything I have doesn't. Hopefully I don't need to check the serial number against data of the manufacturer--or do I-- in order to get a "born on" date?
 
There seems to be a year on my 2 lb Vihtavuoris, or there was in 98 and 99, and 1 lb Hodgdons say 02 and 15, which matches my recollection. I too have quite an assortment, most of them almost empty but some near full. I could wait for the next shortage and drag them to a show. If I knock carts down to salvage bullets and I'm unsure of the powder, I've been dumping it in an old container and dropping a match in on the 4th of July, outdoors and only a little in the bottom of course. It's pretty dull with rifle powder but it can be exciting if there is enough handgun fuel.
 
I have lots of powder--probably more than I should considering I'm not getting out to test and fire as much as I used to.

I was curious about the aging thing--and noticed that only some of the older Alliant 1 lb'rs have any kind of date on them--about 95% of everything I have doesn't. Hopefully I don't need to check the serial number against data of the manufacturer--or do I-- in order to get a "born on" date?
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Since the late eighties I have been writing the purchase date on my powders. I did it because I have OCD and wanted to shoot up the oldest powder first. I did not know at the time that powder had a shelf life, so maybe there are unintentional benefits to OCD. :rolleyes: I still have some late 80's Unique that I am shooting up, and then the next batch is in the early 90's. Powder manufacturer's are not obligated to date their powders, old Hercules powders have lot numbers that don't correspond to anything. Dupont lot numbers meant nothing either. I have several kegs of H4895 and those kegs have dates on the bottom. I write these dates on the top so I can easily pick out the oldest and shoot that up first.

The lack of information is deliberate. The shooting community has been educated by absence. No information on shelf life catered to shooter's biases: they assume they are immortal and therefore their gunpowder is immortal. Confirmation bias allows the shooting community to ignore evidence that contradicts this view. I don't know how many times I have read, or heard, someone describe overpressure old surplus ammunition as "machine gun" ammunition. Deterioration of gunpowder raises combustion pressures, but age is discounted because shooters want to believe that ammunition is immortal, perfect to infinity and beyond. An absence of information increases the profitability of the ammunition industry. Ignorant shooters will buy anything, not quibble about paying full price for twenty, thirty year old ammunition or powder. In fact, there are those who believe that old stuff is much better than new. Our ignorance is their strength.

Basically, inspect your powders, shoot up the oldest first. Based on experience with loaded rifle ammunition, I am getting to the opinion that it is best to load close to the time you shoot. I have too many cases that were loaded ten years or more experience issues due to gunpowder deterioration.
 
...it is best to load close to the time you shoot
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Makes sense--but upon further reflection--if you're only using the powder when you're ready to shoot--then by implication the powder stays in storage longer, no? ; ) (that's more or less what I do..though it's mostly is because I just can't shoot as often as I used to)
 
...it is best to load close to the time you
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shoot

Makes sense--but upon further reflection--if you're only using the powder when you're ready to shoot--then by implication the powder stays in storage longer, no? ; ) (that's more or less what I do..though it's mostly is because I just can't shoot as often as I used to)
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I am going through old pistol ammunition, stuff I loaded more than a decade ago. Considering that I am lucky to hit the berm with my handgun, I don't notice any accuracy issues. But what I have noticed for rifle ammunition, deteriorating gunpowder causes case neck splits and accuracy deteriorates. Outgassing nitric acid gas in the case causes brass splits and bullets to corrode to the case neck. Neither of these conducive to accuracy, and Bart B once mentioned that corrosion between bullets and case necks raise pressures. I have met others who recommend "cracking" bullets on old ammunition. That is put the round in the press, use the bullet seater to push the bullet down to break the seal.
 
Wow. :eek:

I'm going to the powder magazine and inspecting everything in there. If there is any sign of deterioration, its going to the dumpster today.
 
It's funny--I may be imagining things but I've noticed that some of the caps on my plastic kegs seem to loosen themselves over time--even ones I've never opened. I now periodically check and tighten them
 
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