Anyone using Vihtavuori N140, N-150 powder needs to read this : -

I have VV powders. They are all I can buy here. So, needless to say I was curious about this post. Seriously though, the issue is the time it was kept, rather than simply the powder.

In that link the poster said they were 10yrs old. That is quite a while!! If I load, I do so because I plan to shoot. Sure, I may keep them in storage for a while: some months perhaps, but not a decade. I think the wise thing to do would be to load and when you shoot, use up the oldest cartridges of a given type you want to fire, keeping the stock refreshed.

Bottom line is for me, if you plan to load and store then, fine, don't go for VV N140 (bearing in mind these were only two guys on that thread) if it makes you feel better.

If you plan to shoot your reloads, then VV makes very good powders and I think people would be denying themselves a very good product because of something that might happen if kept for an exceedingly long time.

If that time aspect does not apply: I say buy!
 
Seriously though, the issue is the time it was kept, rather than simply the powder.
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I don't agree with that at all. I have ammunition here that was made in the 1930-1940s and it doesn't look like those examples in the op's link.

I saw where someone said that the affected person should call the mfg of Vita-Vouri, I thought they went out of business because their government shut them down.

I've always heard that VV was supposed to be really good powder but maybe it doesn't have the longevity of the other powder companies.

I also have powder left over from the 1060s and am still actively using it. I have no problems with letting loads sit around for 20-30 years before using it.

Never saw anything like that.

An awful lot of the surplus ammo that's still available is way older than what the OPs link is showing.

We can't get VV around here and now I'm glad of it.
 
I don't agree with that at all.
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Perhaps my point was not clear. VV powder (still trading very well by the way) is good powder. For whatever reason it did not like being kept in whatever conditions applied.

So I am saying that, if a person does not load then stash ammo for years and years, this story should not dissuade them from getting this powder as the time needed for whatever happened to occur would not elapse before the ammo was fired...
This would not stop me buying N140 because I will not load bullets and then leave them to sit for so long...

Now, if one loads to then store, for whatever reason, then fine, a shooter may then think this is not the powder for them.

It should be noted that in post #6 of the link, another member states the same issue with 4198 powder.
 
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I think it appears to be limited to N140 and N150.

I used Vv N320 and N330 in the UK with no problems what so ever, it's a very clean burning powder and if I could get it in NZ I'd use it again without hesitation.
That said, I don't reload for rifle and I don't keep reloaded rounds at the bottom of the safe for 10 years +.

Cheers
Gaz
 
I would take the whole situation with a grain of powder.

We don't know what chemicals were used in any of the processing. There are a plethora of explanations that have nothing to do with the VV powder.

The second group of pictures left me even more skeptical due to the condition of the ammunition displayed. It all had some degree of corrosion on it.

If VV powder was decently priced I would have no issues buying it. Not sure elsewhere but its very very expensive up here so I don't.

Like James I shoot my ammunition up and seldom store it.

My take is while factory loaded ammunition that was done in very controlled environment and conditions is good forever, nothing I do is anywhere close to that.
 
I agree with James. I have found that VV powder is the most accurate I have found - both N140 for .308s and N133 for .223s - but I have only been shooting them in quantity for about 2 years so I can't speak to their old powder formulas that go back 10 years or so. Those are the formulas that are in question. I don't even know if today's formulas are the same as they were 2 years ago.

I generally load my ammo and then shoot it. I don't leave ammo lying around for more than a few months in any case so I doubt I will ever see corrosion like was shown in those photos.

From a cleaning perspective, VV powders are very clean burning and leave little residue. Reloader 15 is quite dirty in comparison.

I won't get my hair on fire over it since I doubt if I will ever leave ammo stored for that amount of time.
 
The pictures in the other forum of loads with the same components except powder stored in the same box sure make this look like a VV powder problem.

I wonder why there is not input from VV. Didn't the people with the actual problem ever contact them, or did VV never respond?

SL1
 
I have written pages of material on the kinetics, chemistry, and problems of old, deteriorated gunpowder, and this is another example.

You store gunpowder in hot, wet conditions, it ages a lot faster than if you stored it in Antarctica.

This is not a Vihtavuori problem, this is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

(I had to look it up, I forgot which one it was!) :o
 
Slamfire,

It DOES look like a VV problem when you follow the link in the OP's post and look at post #20. The cartridges loaded with the VV powder were the only ones that corroded, despite otherwise identical components and storage in the same box.

SL1
 
N140 Problems

In pulling down some hand loads that were from a development effort back on 06 - 07, I found some serious issues.
This was ammo for short range rapids in XC shooting. National Match stuff.
Everything was identical except for 2 powder types.
Berger 73gr LTB bullets
New Federal Gold Medal .223 brass - factory primed w/ FGM 205M primers.
Powder was various weights of N140 and N540.

Pulled all the bullets w/ a Hornady LNL collet puller - the 140 loads came out a bit sticky - took a tad more oomph to get them out.
540 loads came out with ease. I noticed in all the 140 loads, the base of bullet was discolored. The 540 loads - base of the bullet looked brand new.

Here is the kicker; The 540 loads pour out after a little help with a toothpick - easy. Inside the cases - clean and bright - new brass just like when they were loaded.
The 140 loads...wow! Inside the cases were almost black. The powder had to be scraped off the walls and the walls were what appeared to be oxidized. Kind of a greenish grey discoloration.

It is interesting to note that this ammo was loaded in brand new Fed GM brass w/ factory loaded FGM 205 M primers - both powders were dropped during the same loading session. Brass came from the same box - literally everything was exactly the same except the powder types. The two different powder type / loaded ammo were stored in the same MTM plastic box. My shop is temp / humidity controlled - the only difference between the corroded ammo and the non corroded was x number had N140 and x number had N540. Really is very strange.
Interestingly enough, I never had much luck with the N140. Far better results w/ N540.
I have a pic of a sectioned case but cant figure out how to post it - which was loaded with N140. Every case was corroded as well as the bullet bases. The cases loaded w/ N540 were spotless - I didn't even bother sectioning them. The bullets were fine as well. Again - this was a development effort - the brass came from the same lot, was prepped all at the same time, loaded within minutes of one another - bullets from the same box.
The only variable was the powder. This was loaded in 2007.
I'd love to get Vihtavouri's take on it, but I highly doubt they'd even comment on it.

I did an internet search and found a posting on the FALFIles and this one here.

Baffled - thoughts / comment?
 
I have a pic of a sectioned case but cant figure out how to post it
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Go to a free photograph site, such as Photobucket, and create an account.

Then up load a picture, which I do from my computer hard drive.

Copy the
link, into a post, and everyone will be able to see your photos.
 
I know this is very old now but just to add, I had the problem with N 140 in some 375 H&H that was probably about 10 years old, not near as bad as the pictures. I just had green on the bullets below the neck. I went back and forth with Vit by email on it. They seemed bewildered and had nothing to add. I still like the powder and use it, but I don't let cartridges sit around. Maybe Europeans load em up just before they use them.
 
This is not a Vihtavuori problem, this is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics
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That right?
Please explain that statement and provide the supporting equations to back it up.
I have shot fifty year old ammunition without any issues whatsoever so I fail
to see how the Laws of Physics selectively apply.
 
I just recalled that I had some 7X57 made with the same lot of N 140 that gave the problem, probably at least 8 years old now, so I knocked one down to check it. There was no hint of corrosion inside. I also recall something I told Vv back when I was talking to them - the first time I opened that bottle, which was when I was loading 375, a very strong odor was noticed. There is no odor now. I think that nails it. They used something during manufacture that they thought would evaporate, but traces remained in some lots for a while. Just opening the bottle, pouring some out and then returning the unused was enough to purge it. I bet they have instituted internal processes to prevent any more trouble. I'll keep using it because no other brand has given me the so much ballistic uniformity.
 
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