David L Smith, I agree with much of what you say. Shooting dime sized groups at 7 yards from a combat stance is very good shooting. I know some folks that will never be able to consistantly do that, yet can shoot 6" groups rapid fire at the same distance. I understand that basic fundamentals must be learned first, but shooting fast is a skill that has to be learned and practised. I love bullseye shooting, but given a choice I will take speed and combat accuracy every time.
Any Practical Benefits to Rapid fire practice?
- Thread starter Rangerrich99
- Start date
Rangerrich99
New member
Okay, the other day I was breaking in my new G19 and decided to try some rapid fire practice. The results were interesting. I discovered that my grip needs some work, as my support hand slipped forward during my 'mag dump', so far that my palm was more on my strong hand's fingertips than on the grip panel. Also, my shots quickly began to drift high and left. Anyway, here's the target for you guys to critique if you'd like. The mag dump was with the G19 was the lower left square at 5 yards; the upper two left side squares were slow fire practice at 7 and 10 yards. The right squares were with my 1911, same distances. The lower right square was my attempt at a .45 auto mag dump at 5 yards. I did another mag dump with the G19 on another target, where the group also drifted high and left, and was about 2 inches larger. However, I didn't remember to take a pic of that target.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208935732567731&set=a.10201646212454284.1073741826.1148269799&type=3&theater
I didn't have a way to time anything, and I didn't just pull the trigger as fast as I could. I pulled the trigger as soon as I saw the front sight drop back into the square. If I had to guess though, I'd be confident that both dumps took less than 10 seconds.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208935732567731&set=a.10201646212454284.1073741826.1148269799&type=3&theater
I didn't have a way to time anything, and I didn't just pull the trigger as fast as I could. I pulled the trigger as soon as I saw the front sight drop back into the square. If I had to guess though, I'd be confident that both dumps took less than 10 seconds.
Heres two mags, ten yards, 50 rounds, two pulls on the trigger, total time, ~3 seconds. SWD M11/9mm SMG.
These were all move/draw and shooting 3-5 round bursts on average as you go....
Exactly.
Its usually those who dont understand its use, dont practice it, and because of that, arent capable, that usually complain.
David L. Smith
New member
ooops! Forgot that I already commented on this! Mods - feel free to delete this comment! I'm not sure how!
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If you carrying for SD I would suggest you break this habit two rounds at a bulls-eye, then assess.
That assess might get you killed . how about mixing up 1 shot 4 shots 2 shots 3 shots.
I just think two rounds at a bulls-eye, then assess habit. Might not be wise if need for real
That assess might get you killed . how about mixing up 1 shot 4 shots 2 shots 3 shots.
I just think two rounds at a bulls-eye, then assess habit. Might not be wise if need for real
I would think if the target continues to remain in your sights after you shoot, you would continue shooting until it wasnt or you were empty. Why would you stop?
I can see shifting focus on the target if Im not getting the desired result, and would do so, but Im not stopping until they are down.
I can see shifting focus on the target if Im not getting the desired result, and would do so, but Im not stopping until they are down.
No. It wastes ammo and it's not gunfightin' fair. You shoot once and then you allow a bad guy a return shot. Meanwhile the rest of us will shoot and keep shooting until the bad guy is no longer a threat. This basic tactical firearms rule doesn't apply to Pond, James Pond. He goes with the gentleman's gunfighting rule.
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There are but two rules of the wise when it comes to gunfighting:
1. The ONLY certain way of surviving a gunfight is to not get it one. Avoidance = living.
2. If you can't avoid a gunfight, don't get shot. Never remain a stationary target for a bad guy's rounds. It won't turn out well for you. Getting shot means you'll no longer pay taxes, and that'll upset Obama. He needs all the money he can get to buy Obamaphones.
1. The ONLY certain way of surviving a gunfight is to not get it one. Avoidance = living.
2. If you can't avoid a gunfight, don't get shot. Never remain a stationary target for a bad guy's rounds. It won't turn out well for you. Getting shot means you'll no longer pay taxes, and that'll upset Obama. He needs all the money he can get to buy Obamaphones.
It always amazes me that this seems to be so hard for so many to understand.
Look at it this way, if they opposition only practices like those who dont get it, then its likely going to be the guy whos the quickest who prevails. Oh, wait, now we're back into the speed shooting thing. Hmmmmm, this is beginning to get complicated!
I've done it for fun. It is a hoot to pop off a 35 round mag of 9mm from my M-11 pistol. My range is in my back yeard and there are no rules. Shooting a AK with a 50 or 100 rd drum is fun too. The rifle does get hot.
Everyone has a right to shoot how they want to. Just because you don't like it does not mean nobody should do it.
Everyone has a right to shoot how they want to. Just because you don't like it does not mean nobody should do it.
I practice firing as quickly as I can land rounds effectively on target. Because I carry a firearm on duty it's important to me to be combat or real world effective with my firearm. I'm less concerned with accuracy and more concerned with putting rounds where I want them when I want them. Given a situation where I have to use deadly force I want to fire until a threat is stopped. Aimed fire and accuracy are out the window. I purposely do not focus on aiming and more so point shooting and follow up.
In my opinion this is the best way to be effective with a handgun. You can't expect to place well aimed precise shots on a target when you're in a life or death defensive situation. Maybe not fire as fast as you can mag dump. But fire as fast as you can controlled on an 8 inch target at 7 yards. I can empty 16 rounds of 9mm in less than 4 seconds with a 4 inch group at 7 yards. That, I'm okay with.
In my opinion this is the best way to be effective with a handgun. You can't expect to place well aimed precise shots on a target when you're in a life or death defensive situation. Maybe not fire as fast as you can mag dump. But fire as fast as you can controlled on an 8 inch target at 7 yards. I can empty 16 rounds of 9mm in less than 4 seconds with a 4 inch group at 7 yards. That, I'm okay with.
Your definition of accuracy and my definition of accuracy seem different.
I've done point shooting and I don't have anything against it; it's an important skill. I'd point out for those reading this here that for any civilian discharging a firearm you will answer for every shot you fire. Misses, overpenetration, etc. could easily see you facing criminal charges if not civil suits if you're not mindful of where those shots are going (and even in a good shoot you may well end up in court). Now I get you're saying a self defense encounter isn't bullseye shooting on a square range with all the time in the world and I completely agree and respect that notion. But there's a balance that must be struck and I feel your comments don't convey that.
You mention on duty so I imagine you're either law enforcement or military. In full disclosure that is not my profession, though I have trained under and besides people in those professions. I would suggest you practice headshots, which are aimed and precise, in addition to rapid fire. Bulletproof vests aren't that expensive or restricted and some drugs can provide seemingly inhuman resistance. Handguns themselves are relatively poor stoppers of people and at some point instead of pouring more shots into the upper thorax you may need to take the headshot. There are a number of documented cases of this happening.
Ive said it before..
Speed and accuracy are not mutually exclusive. They ARE opposite ends of a balancing scale. As one goes up the other WILL go down. The shooters job is to balance them for the shot at hand.
Large tgt up close (think thoracic cavity @ 0-5 yds) that balance should be weighted towards SPEED. An 8" group in the chest of an attacker is fine... Darn near cyclic rate is the speed needed
When a more precise shot is needed (headshot @ 7-10yds), you need to slow down a tad and concentrate on the fundamentals, IE Sights and trigger control.
When a ultra precise shot is needed (longer distance OR a partially obscured tgt), that balance goes all the way towards accuracy.
Its just like high performance driving in a manual transmission car. Some times you throttle up....sometimes you down shift. Whats the task at hand?
Speed and accuracy are not mutually exclusive. They ARE opposite ends of a balancing scale. As one goes up the other WILL go down. The shooters job is to balance them for the shot at hand.
Large tgt up close (think thoracic cavity @ 0-5 yds) that balance should be weighted towards SPEED. An 8" group in the chest of an attacker is fine... Darn near cyclic rate is the speed needed
When a more precise shot is needed (headshot @ 7-10yds), you need to slow down a tad and concentrate on the fundamentals, IE Sights and trigger control.
When a ultra precise shot is needed (longer distance OR a partially obscured tgt), that balance goes all the way towards accuracy.
Its just like high performance driving in a manual transmission car. Some times you throttle up....sometimes you down shift. Whats the task at hand?
Guggmeister
New member
You train to hit all the targets as fast as possible and as many times as required.
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The gentleman that taught me to shoot so many years ago gave me an exercise, You point the gun at the ground several yards in front of you. Finger off the trigger and look at the target.
You then bring the gun up so that the gun lines up with the eyes then fire.
This helped me gain acquisition speed and to look at your target and not the gun.
You then bring the gun up so that the gun lines up with the eyes then fire.
This helped me gain acquisition speed and to look at your target and not the gun.
No. Hitting your intended target as fast as possible...maybe. It is probably fairly pointless, however, for a stationary shooter to hit a stationary target as fast as possible.
For the action games and for survival, I think fast and accurate and equally useless without the other.
Now OTOH, I've done 'mag dumps', but with the specific goal of getting my hand-eye coordination squared away--having the gun discharge when the sight picture and target are 'good', not after 'getting them right' then thinking about it, then deciding to press the trigger, then pressing the trigger. IOW, the goal is to have the trigger break at exactly the time you've recovered the gun from recoil. 'As fast as possible' in this case is (for me) quite a bit slower than emptying the mag 'as fast as possible'. A goal might be to make the two close to the same.
What I also feel is about as useless as the 'mag dump' you're talking about is the folks who draw from the holster like John Wayne, then take 5 seconds to line up on the target. Sorry...you're dead.
Well, there's benefits to the heart rate
After you're done, you'll notice a very relaxed feeling...
And it tells you how fast you can really do it if you had to...
which helps in all sorts of firearms competitions...
This is going to be a screwy analogy, but hey, you work with what you know...
Its kinda like playing Bass guitar...you start slow, getting used to the feel,
the walking fingers, the slap style, and the pick...and you get competent...
until you can play well, and fast...then you get to the upper end of playing...
like Billy Sheehan, which reaches into the fast & wild spectrum
But the ONLY way to know how far you can go,
is to do it as fast as you can.
Or maybe what y'all saw at the range was a bunch of Jerry Miculek Wannabee's
Which, since I shoot competitively as well, am guilty of quite often...
watch a couple of his vids & try out new stuff to get faster...