Answer to question on a closed thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
As a general rule, I don't dismiss out of hand the opinions of people with whom I disagree. One of the few exceptions I have for my own rule is when those opinions broach the subject of war. Mostly the exception comes into play, because the holder of such an opinion has never experienced the conflict over which they are opining. Other than possibly "book learning" they have nothing on which to base their opinion.

As regards the current conflict in Iraq, I not only have my own experience in Vietnam, with which to draw upon, I have the first hand experience of many troops that have served and continue to serve over in that sand box.

Here's the funny part. Each and every man I've talked to, have told me of the good that we do there. They have told me how the people in general appreciate our presence. They have told me that for the most part, the "insurgents" target their own people, because they fear the retaliation they get from targeting the military. That the "insurgents" are in fact, terrorists. Many of which are not Iraqi themselves.

That last little bit is rather tell-tale, don't you think? Especially as it is not what is reported by the MSM. Whom then do I believe?

There are 2 definitions from Webster's on insurgents:

1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2 : one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party


Now contrast that definition with terrorism:

1 : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
2 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands


When the target is more often than not, the people themselves; when the agent is more often than not, not an Iraqi national, then the label "terrorist" is more appropriate than "insurgent."
 
Antipitas,
I understand where you're coming from, but our own intelligence, the news from our own generals, and the polls disagree with your news from the front.
They paint a much different picture, one that's supported by what I'm seeing in the news.
 
and the polls disagree with your news from the front.
Polls? What the frell do polls have to do with any of this?

Sorry, GoSlash27. But you have just lost any credibility with me, whatsoever.
 
The polls gauge what the Iraqi people are thinking. And it makes not a whit if what they're thinking happens to be true or not. Hearts and minds. If you can't grasp the importance of that then it's not my credibility you should be concerned about.
What polls did you think I was referring to, our domestic polls? Fretting about American opinion is your purview, not mine. That's why you never had any credibility to begin with. You're still convinced that the domestic opinion or what our media says somehow impacts the fight on the ground over there.

These are the poll numbers we need to worry about:

57% of Iraqis believe that we should leave right now.
58% of Iraqis believe that we have conducted ourselves badly.
60% of Iraqis claim that we disrespect them during the searches of their homes.
67% of Iraqis believe that we make no effort to protect them from the fighting.
 
GoSlash27 said:
The polls gauge what the Iraqi people are thinking.

GoSlash - Are you trying to be funny? You're cracking me up again! I think you actually believe these polls are accurate and don't have a political bent to them. Opinion polls can be worded to get the results desired by those conducting the polls. Surely such a simple truth isn't beyond your comprehension.
 
GoSlash27 said:
What polls did you think I was referring to, our domestic polls? Fretting about American opinion is your purview, not mine.
GoSlash, I had thought my remarks about polls were about any and all polls. Not about what you thought I meant. Allow me to re-phrase:

Polls? What the frell do polls have to do with any of this?

Take the statement above for what it means, not what you think it means.
 
I've been camping since monday and it looks like nothing has changed except GS's credibility. I guess we'll agree to disagree.


As a general rule, I don't dismiss out of hand the opinions of people with whom I disagree. One of the few exceptions I have for my own rule is when those opinions broach the subject of war. Mostly the exception comes into play, because the holder of such an opinion has never experienced the conflict over which they are opining. Other than possibly "book learning" they have nothing on which to base their opinion.

As regards the current conflict in Iraq, I not only have my own experience in Vietnam, with which to draw upon, I have the first hand experience of many troops that have served and continue to serve over in that sand box.

Here's the funny part. Each and every man I've talked to, have told me of the good that we do there. They have told me how the people in general appreciate our presence. They have told me that for the most part, the "insurgents" target their own people, because they fear the retaliation they get from targeting the military. That the "insurgents" are in fact, terrorists. Many of which are not Iraqi themselves.

Antipitas, it's nice to see someone else seeing through this "plan". I didn't intend on wholesale slaughter or dismissal of it. Like I said, I was basing my opinion on experience, not "book learning".


GS,
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I'm certainly glad your opinion will never go further than your head and keyboard.
 
Of course you two will happily dismiss hard evidence in favor of unsubstantiated hearsay. After all, it allows you to think what makes you feel good. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, your opinion is shared by our president so sad to say that in a way it makes it past your head and keyboard. And we all pay the price for your collective folly.

Oh, and Antipitas,
You have no idea what my experience might be. Unlike you, I have set foot in that sandbox myself. While I could go on and on clowning you about that, I will refrain. I don't believe that understanding requires first-hand experience. Even though...you know...I have it and you don't :D
 
Antipitas,
I didn't realize that was a serious question. I'd think you'd already know what they have to do with this. Guess not.

The polls are a scientifically conducted and useful gauge of the attitude of the people. Your unverifiable hearsay is not.
Did your friends contact nine hundred random Iraqis from specific areas and ask them a set list of specific questions and statistically quantify the answers before declaring that they love us over there? No. They were led to a false conclusion based on the people they talked to without realizing that their very presence skewed the results.
If you want to actually win this war, you need to make use of *all* available information and plan accordingly, not just discard information you don't like.

I would think that would be so obvious it wouldn't need explaining.
 
Gee, you musta missed this...
The Blues Man said:
GoSlash - Are you trying to be funny? You're cracking me up again! I think you actually believe these polls are accurate and don't have a political bent to them. Opinion polls can be worded to get the results desired by those conducting the polls. Surely such a simple truth isn't beyond your comprehension.
So you have USA Today, who contacted Gallup, to conduct a poll. And here you stand and say it wasn't biased? USA Today?? Gallup??

Do you even wonder why Zogby wasn't contracted? Clue: USA TODAY didn't want an "honest" and scientific poll.
 
"So what do you call the group that tries to dispel these so called invaders by using that force against civilians. Do any of your news sources mention that it is mostly Iraqis civilians being killed by the honorable insurgents?
They're terrorists. But don't feel bad if you can't tell. Most of the Bush haters and America demonizers are having the same trouble"

Thank you for saving me a lot of typing.

John
 
Antipitas,
If you level the charge of bias in a poll it is incumbent upon you to prove the bias, not me to disprove it. I have no beef with Gallup's methods.
You have the specific questions asked, the exact numbers of respondents, their answers, and their general locations. So have at it. Tell me exactly how they skewed the results. Or...you know...can it. Whichever.
In the meantime, a scientifically conducted survey knocks the crap out of unsubstantiated gossip.
You don't like polls because sometimes they show things you don't like to see. Waah. That's exactly why I like polls; even bad news can be useful.
 
johnBT,
For the record I still call them insurgents when force is not 'directed at' civillians even if they take the brunt. When the force is specifically intended to kill civillians then you're dealing with terrorists.
 
I fail to see any meaningful difference in "not 'directed at' civillians even if they take the brunt" and "is specifically intended to kill civillians".

The civilians are terrorized, or dead, any way you look at it.

John
 
The polls are a scientifically conducted and useful gauge of the attitude of the people. Your unverifiable hearsay is not.
Did your friends contact nine hundred random Iraqis from specific areas and ask them a set list of specific questions and statistically quantify the answers before declaring that they love us over there? No. They were led to a false conclusion based on the people they talked to without realizing that their very presence skewed the results.
If you want to actually win this war, you need to make use of *all* available information and plan accordingly, not just discard information you don't like.

Polls can tell you anything you would like them to say. It's all how they word the questions.

If you level the charge of bias in a poll it is incumbent upon you to prove the bias, not me to disprove it. I have no beef with Gallup's methods.
You have the specific questions asked, the exact numbers of respondents, their answers, and their general locations. So have at it. Tell me exactly how they skewed the results. Or...you know...can it. Whichever.
In the meantime, a scientifically conducted survey knocks the crap out of unsubstantiated gossip.
You don't like polls because sometimes they show things you don't like to see. Waah. That's exactly why I like polls; even bad news can be useful.

Guess your polls aren't all they are cracked up to be. Here is a link specifically about Gallup polls and how they can change the wording to get the desired outcome.

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/7601/

It was written in 2000 by Norman Solomon. I surprised that I have to inform you that polls aren't unbiased and definately aren't a science.
 
Just got home Don. Ya beat me to it, with your link!

There's another question you should be asking, GoSlash. Are the questions you see the actual questions as asked? Consider this: The following are the major languages of Iraq (major being defined as at least 100K speak this language):

Arabic: Mesopotamian
Arabic: Najdi
Arabic: North Mesopotamian
Arabic: Standard
Arabic: Egyptian
Azerbaijani: South
Behdini
Chaldean: Neo-Aramaic
Farsi: Western
Kurdish: Central
Kurdish: Northern
Persian
Syriac: Ancient
Syriac: Modern, Elkoosh
Syriac: Modern, Urmi

Do you really think that the Farsi version reads exactly the same as the Chaldean version? Or the Syriac version? and so on... Is there a list of translated questions available for each dialect? Did Gallup even bother? Do any of the versions read or say the same as the English version?

If not, then the poll was anything but scientific.
 
Thanks Antipitis,
I was saving that for later, I didn't want GS to get bogged down in details. Oooops sorry, details aren't his forte' only generalities.


gen·er·al·i·ty Audio pronunciation of "generalities" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-rl-t)
n. pl. gen·er·al·i·ties

1. The state or quality of being general.
2. An observation or principle having general application; a generalization.
3. An imprecise or vague statement or idea.
4. The greater portion or number; the majority.
 
Johnbt,
American troops have inadvertently killed civillians. Would you characterize them as terrorists? If not, why not? After all, they're just as dead...
And while You may find no meaningful difference, the Iraqi people do.

Don,
I don't care about how polls "can" be biased, I want proof to back up the claim that this particular poll *is* biased. I'll just wait right here....

Antipitas,
And I suppose your Army buddies speak all these dialects and are thus much more reliable?

You guys are grasping at each other's straws. How quaint :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top