Another SWAT OP gone astray? How will this cookie crumble in federal court?

[DonR101395]

I don't mean to take sides here, but if LE are supposed to be the good guys they have to follow and operate by the procedures they were trained under and to follow the LAW, not go blasting into houses with the "Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" attitude.

If you go back to my original post I said how about we get both sides of the story, not just the "victoms" side.(paraphrase) Then make an informed decision.

As to the alcohol and cigarettes, yes I would if they were illegal. You can't substitute illegal with legal and call it a stance. If killing weren't illegal this case wouldn't be an issue.(see how ridiculous that is?) I don't drink or smoke, I don't care for it. Growing up with an alcholic father I know what abuses can take place around alcohol abuse.

 

[johnbt]

"Officers conducted the raid after finding marijuana seeds in the Noels' garbage can."

I found this with google.

Well, duh, they obviously weren't growing the stuff, now were they?

Don't you wish you'd been a fly of the wall at the planning meeting prior to the raid? "Okay, now let's be careful on this one and not shoot the Sunday School teacher? Hey, you in the back row, pay attention."

John

 

[alan]

As I said, we shall have to see how this cookie crumbles, however given that blue is not my best color, I would not care to hold my breath, waiting to see the aggreived parties get a fair shake from the judiciary, either Maryland or federal. This is notwithstanding the large possibility that the news story I posted does not tell all.

I believe that it will be that cold day in hell when SWAT activities are really curbed. Have the antics of the BATFE, as it is currently known, off point perhaps, ever been checked? Some of their actions have been egregious to say the very least.

 

[Omega blood]

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
(note: section 2-5 omitted)

At 4:30 a.m. on Jan. 21, 2005, Noel and her husband, Charles, were asleep in the master bedroom of their row house when the heavily-armed Baltimore County SWAT team stormed through her home. According to the suit, officers had found “trace amounts of drugs” in trash cans outside of the home.

Is this really probable cause or just really bad and lazy police work?
This is just me but I would think you would at least try to dig up more evidence than just digging through a trash can. Keep in mind that a trashcan will eventually end up in the street where anyone can drop something into it.
Did the LE steak out the house or follow the occupants to see how they were getting or if they were selling drugs?
How about looking for specious activity?
What did they find? Some resin from some pot?

Regarding issue with the 14th amendment looks clear to me. She was deprived of life with out the due process of law. I am sure if they did some basic police work they could have found out where she worked and arrest her there. Or if she did not work find out her routine and arrest her when she was out and about.

Another question, is the husband in jail for the drugs they were looking for? Did they even find drugs? If so which ones? How much? Did they find any evidence of criminal activity at all? How about the kids (if any)? Are they in foster care or living with relatives?

It just seems to me that Cheryl Noel died at the hands of an over powered, over zealous, lazy, heavy-handed police force.

P.S. Trace amounts of drugs can be found on American money.

 

[azurefly]

No, the family had already been secured downstairs before the officers went upstairs to find the woman alone in her room pointing a gun at them.

Joab, you know that she was "pointing a gun at them" how, exactly?

It's funny how you claim people rush to judgment to condemn the cops, and then you make "factual" statements that at this point have not been proved true or false.

You stated that the woman was pointing a gun at the police. Has that been established by an unimpeachable, irrefutable source?


Now, yes, there seem to be some rather hinkey goings-on with both sides in this case. I find plenty of reason to doubt whether the family was upstanding citizens. If it is true -- and forensic evidence demonstrates it -- that the woman was shot a third time after having already collapsed, then that should go toward a wrongful death finding. After all, if any of us shot an intruder in our homes twice, and then plugged him a third and final time once he was face-down on the floor, for example, we would not be sleeping at home for many more nights, that's for sure.

I would like to see more information about how the cops came to suspect drug activity in this home;
why "trace" evidence of drugs out where any member of the public can tamper with it is reason enough for a warrant;
why the cops could not arrest the couple outside their home in a normal manner, rather than storming a home where children were present.


-azurefly

 

[Epyon]

To DonR101395...

Anyone who's an addict regardless of legal or illegal substance is capable of abusing those around them. As for my statement on whether or not it was legal, (this is about to go off topic a bit) it would've been irrelevant as to the legality of the substance if the person was NOT an addict and was NOT an abusive parent and used that substance in moderation, how are they abusing their children? What if the children are happy with their lives at home, and the mother and father are loving parents? So pot smoking parents are suddenly abusing their children when they smoke in moderation and don't abandon/beat their kids? At this point we don't know what the warrant was for, the "trace amount of drugs" was found AFTER the raid, still if it was a drug charge busting in like that is overkill. I've known people who do drink and smoke (both legal and illegal) but raise their kids well. Not to single out a specific group but it is known that in certain cultures consumption of cannabis is perfectly okay because it is accepted as something to help relax, enjoy, and for spiritual purposes. So what's the big deal about a substance that has been used by humans for thousands of years, and has only been outlawed in the last century or so? Sometimes the legality of certain things are questionable.


Epyon

 

[joab]

You stated that the woman was pointing a gun at the police. Has that been established by an unimpeachable, irrefutable
source?

Let's see the lawyer for the family says that she had a gun no one involved with the case has at any time denied or disputed that she was in possession of a gun at the time if the incident. Is that irrefutable an unimpeachable enough for you?
If you want split frog hairs about the definition of "pointed at" go somewhere else.

f it is true -- and forensic evidence demonstrates it -- that the woman was shot a third time after having already collapsed, then that should go toward a wrongful death finding. After all, if any of us shot an intruder in our homes twice, and then plugged him a third and final time once he was face-down on the floor, for example, we would not be sleeping at home for many more nights, that's for sure.

Wouldn't that depend on whether the first two shots could be determined to have been instantly fatal or at least incapacitating to the point that could be no twitching and/or involuntary muscle movement

 

[azurefly]

Let's see the lawyer for the family says that she had a gun no one involved with the case has at any time denied or disputed that she was in possession of a gun at the time if the incident. Is that irrefutable an unimpeachable enough for you?

Nope, considering that the article that started the thread states that the lawyer said the woman was pointing the gun at the floor, not at the cop.

Cheryl Noel feared criminal intruders had broken into her home and grabbed a lawfully registered gun and held it pointed at the floor, the suit states.

So, Joab, since you seem to have been there when it all went down, and feel at liberty to change the story of how it proceeded, why don't you just write a letter to the DA in Baltimore and tell him that you will come in and meet with him to tell him what really happened?


-azurefly

 

[azurefly]

"If it is true -- and forensic evidence demonstrates it -- that the woman was shot a third time after having already collapsed, then that should go toward a wrongful death finding. After all, if any of us shot an intruder in our homes twice, and then plugged him a third and final time once he was face-down on the floor, for example, we would not be sleeping at home for many more nights, that's for sure."


Wouldn't that depend on whether the first two shots could be determined to have been instantly fatal or at least incapacitating to the point that could be no twitching and/or involuntary muscle movement

Gee, joab, you don't think that the entry and/or exit points for the first two shots might be somewhat different from that of the third shot, alleged to have been fired once she had collapsed to the floor?


-azurefly

 

[johnbt]

"If you want split frog hairs about the definition of "pointed at" go somewhere else."

The question is was it pointed at the floor or pointed at the policeman.

 

[rangermonroe]

Nope, considering that the article that started the thread states that the lawyer said the woman was pointing the gun at the floor, not at the cop.

Where she was pointing the gun should have no basis at all on the justification of the shoot.

Let's assume for a minute that she was a dirtbag protecting her turf. 4am, shouting, flashlights, lots of men running around in her house. Sleepily grabs her gun to protect the "innocent children" under her care. Armed man enters her bedroom on the second floor, (presumably) shouting...yet she still doesn't fire.

Which one of us, "Honest, law-abiding", under the same circumstances, wouldn't have been reloading before the 1st cop hit the floor.

It seems to me that the untrained civilian woman criminal showed more restraint than the SWAT pro.

Before y'all go nuts on me here, I know that she was an alledged criminal, and I probably would not have fired on the cop at all....let alone got off a full mag.

I think that this situation is total crap.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

This whole thing is absurd. If the police conduct an unfruitful, 4 AM raid into your home and you're pointing a gun at the bedroom door as it crashes down, who is at fault for your death? Why should you be required to determine who they are in a fraction of a second, while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.

Just how many of these cases are we gonna dismiss as "bad luck" or even "justifiable shooting" before we start taking these Agencies to task for the absurd Policies and Procedures that virtually guarantee more Cheryl Noels?
Rich

 

[rangermonroe]

Rich said what I meant

Well said rich

 

[Eghad]

Cheryl Noel's stepdaughter had been murdered several years earlier, and her son had recently been jumped by thugs on his way home. So the family had a legal, registered handgun in the home, and Noel had reason to be frightened.

When a SWAT officer kicked open the bedroom door, Noel sat up in bed with the gun, apparently pointed downward, not at the officer. The officer, who was wearing a helmet, mask, shield, and bulletproof vest, and who came in behind a bulletproof ballistic shield, fired twice. Noel slumped over, and the gun slipped out of her hand. The officer then walked over to her and ordered her to move further away from the gun. She couldn't, of course. When she didn't, he shot her a third time, essentially from point-blank range.

That's Charles Noel's version of events. But it's supported by the autopsy done on his wife. And early police accounts of the raid have since been revised. The Baltimore Sun, for example, first reported that police said Noel was pointing her gun at them when they entered. That has since changed. She was holding the gun, but not pointing it at anyone.

After her death, neighbors circulated a petition vouching for her character and integrity. She ran Bible study groups on her lunch break. She's dead not because she's any sort of threat to society, but because Baltimore County police decided to conduct a 4:30am, no-knock raid after finding seeds of marijuana in the family trash.

I'll have more on this later. I've spoken at length with Charles Noel and with Roberts, as well as with several friends of the family.

as Rich said dangerous for the Cops too:

Back in November 2002, Lewis Cauthorne was in the basement of his Baltimore home when heard the screams of his mother, girlfriend, and three-year-old daughter. Baltimore police were conducting a no-knock raid on his home, based on a tip from a single, anonymous informant. Police never announced themselves, and raided in street clothes. Cauthorne emerged from the basement with a handgun, shooting and wounding four of the invading police officers. Cops returned fire. Fortunately, no one was killed in the crossfire.

Cauthorne spent the next seven weeks in jail. Finally, in January of 2003, prosecutors dropped the charges against him, concluding that Cauthorne had reason to believe his life was in danger. Damn right, he did.

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026909.php

What Charles Noel and the family members eneded up being charged with were misdemeanor possesion of marijuana, he posessed over 5 lbs of blackpowder and they were released on without bail.

Pretty damn sad state of affairs when we start killing our citizens over a couple of baggies of marijuana. I just dont understand the need to do a full blown no knock raid on people who have no history of criminal violence. Incompetence, laziness and arrogance by some person in charge.

 

[smooks75]

!!!

Well put Rich.

 

[rangermonroe]

The officer then walked over to her and ordered her to move further away from the gun. She couldn't, of course. When she didn't, he shot her a third time, essentially from point-blank range.

On the one hand, 'That doesn't matter to me at all. If he was justified to shoot to kill one time, then who is to say when is enough?'

On the other hand, 'If he came to arrest in the dark of night, in fully protective garb, invading a home where children slept, what would a reasonable person expect to encounter? A person lying prostrate on the floor, awaiting what fate may come? Or an outraged homeowner protecting the lives and property that fall under her charge?'

A Homeowner is not allowed to set a booby trap in his house to kill a burglar. Not only that you might kill the innocent, but also the guilty. The punishment must fit the crime. Burglary is not a capital offense.

Marijuanna (or heroin) possesion is not a capital offense.

Cauthorne spent the next seven weeks in jail. Finally, in January of 2003, prosecutors dropped the charges against him, concluding that Cauthorne had reason to believe his life was in danger.

So he was in effect "punished" for seven weeks for protecting his own life.

I see a wider and wider net being cast that ensnares both the guilty and the innocent, all in the name of safety for us all.

It seems that it is making allies of the crook and lawabiding. I will consider the accused to be innocent until proven otherwise.

 

[JR47]

The Baltimore City Police Department, and the Baltimore County Police Department are separate entities. The City of Baltimore exists as a stand-alone, just like another county, in Maryland.

Rich, I agree with you that there has been no evidence supplied that would justify a "no-knock" warrant. However, all we seem to be hearing is the information released by the family's attorney, and the people in the house, wherever they were located during the incident. That through the filter of the media, a source of unimpeachable accuracy, right?

I also find it troubling that many are also already convinced that the outcome of the events, should they not be in favor of the deceased's family, simply means that the fix is in. Are we that close to thinking like the rioters in the Rodney King Trial?

 

[Wildcard]

This whole thing is absurd. If the police conduct an unfruitful, 4 AM raid into your home and you're pointing a gun at the bedroom door as it crashes down, who is at fault for your death? Why should you be required to determine who they are in a fraction of a second, while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.

Read that again.

while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.

Well said. There should be more that rights violation charges being pursued.

 

[rangermonroe]

However, all we seem to be hearing is the information released by the family's attorney, and the people in the house, wherever they were located during the incident. That through the filter of the media, a source of unimpeachable accuracy, right?

What I hear is publically announced accusations by the (victim's) family.

What I have not heard is any justification by the armed, home-invaders who perpetuated a homicide.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

JR47-
I'm not arguing against the actions of the individual cops in this case....for the hundredth time, I'm arguing against the No-Knock POLICY in routine cases.

With that understood, here's what we know:
- The raid provided no evidence of real criminal activity in the home....none; zero; nada; zip

- No serious charges were filed against ANYONE in the Noel household.

- ANOTHER US citizen is dead; gunned down by agents of the State in her damned BEDROOM AT 4 IN THE MORNING

- Many on this very web site are looking at it as "just another day" in the law enforcement life of the "Most Free Nation On Earth".

How could freedom loving Americans NOT be incensed by this growing trend?
Rich