Another SWAT OP gone astray? How will this cookie crumble in federal court?
- Thread starter alan
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Ausserordeutlich
Moderator
"By using this logic then, you would wait until a murder is committed instead of intervening while it is in the planning stage?
I stand behind my previous comment that this is one side of the story told by the family. The cops may be guilty as hell of using poor judgment, but they are still inoccent until proven guilty."
I agree. In this case, the murder could have been stopped by having arrested all the cops before the incident happened, or by throwing a flashbang into their "planning room" session, then shooting each of them three times, just to make sure that they didn't go forward with their murder.
I stand behind my previous comment that this is one side of the story told by the family. The cops may be guilty as hell of using poor judgment, but they are still inoccent until proven guilty."
I agree. In this case, the murder could have been stopped by having arrested all the cops before the incident happened, or by throwing a flashbang into their "planning room" session, then shooting each of them three times, just to make sure that they didn't go forward with their murder.
I was not attempting to pass judgement on this isolated incident. The family may very well have been big time cartel members, or tweakers. The police may very well have been justified, and I hope they are, for their sake. I was not there, nor do I attempt to pass judegement based on one biased article based on comments by a money hungry attorney.
I was simply making a comment on the degradation of civil rights as a whole, and the depths which we, as police, have gone to to secure a drug arrest. It is a symptom of the larger problem, in my opnion.
I was simply making a comment on the degradation of civil rights as a whole, and the depths which we, as police, have gone to to secure a drug arrest. It is a symptom of the larger problem, in my opnion.
DonR101395
New member
I'll give you that one lillysdad. That is all I was saying. How about we get the whole story then decide if they should be crucified.
"I agree. In this case, the murder could have been stopped by having arrested all the cops before the incident happened, or by throwing a flashbang into their "planning room" session, then shooting each of them three times, just to make sure that they didn't go forward with their murder".
caught me off guard on that one..
coffee everywhere and not a drop to drink.
im sure later after they tear apart the house that an arsenal will be found, a kilo of coke with their names clearly written on the bag and a an entire meth cooking lab discoverd in the cellar.
caught me off guard on that one..
coffee everywhere and not a drop to drink.im sure later after they tear apart the house that an arsenal will be found, a kilo of coke with their names clearly written on the bag and a an entire meth cooking lab discoverd in the cellar.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Yup, we're definitely not getting the whole story. The whole court case is probably a sham...after all:
- A warrant was issued...they don't just hand those out on hearsay and rumor, you know.
- The cops did a dead of night raid...these teams have better things to do than bust down doors in the middle of the night for minor warrant service. She was probably dealing drugs anyway....a Death Sentence is appropriate.
- She had a gun...At Four AM any law abiding citizen would be able to discern and identify the well known sounds of a police ram and flashbang to identify that the intruders were "friendlies".
- Her husband wasn't armed....Proof Positive that it was a druggie house. He was probably zoned out or flushing the goods while she laid down covering fire.
Serves her right, I'll bet. And now the family's gonna claim she was a "victim".
Nothing to see here, folks. Move along now.
Rich
- A warrant was issued...they don't just hand those out on hearsay and rumor, you know.
- The cops did a dead of night raid...these teams have better things to do than bust down doors in the middle of the night for minor warrant service. She was probably dealing drugs anyway....a Death Sentence is appropriate.
- She had a gun...At Four AM any law abiding citizen would be able to discern and identify the well known sounds of a police ram and flashbang to identify that the intruders were "friendlies".
- Her husband wasn't armed....Proof Positive that it was a druggie house. He was probably zoned out or flushing the goods while she laid down covering fire.
Serves her right, I'll bet. And now the family's gonna claim she was a "victim".
Nothing to see here, folks. Move along now.
Rich
Dreadnought
New member
Ok, the original post quoted from the article states the shooting took place on Jan. 16, 2005. It took 20 months for this to get to trial? Or this only the civil suit after the criminal courts found the defendants not guilty? The only nail in the coffin seems to be the excessive use of force, being Artson's final shot.
The only thing that keeps stuff like that from happening is tireless practice, otherwise the "we were in a house and someone pointed a gun at me and I shot him/her because of the adrenaline and nerves" defense gets kind of old. I am no cop, let alone a SWAT member, but I know the way to keep things from being reactionary instead of calculated is incessant practice. I wonder if Artson was a rookie/green SWAT member and if he has been involved in other shootings.
Don't get me wrong, I support law enforcement fully, those guys are in harm's way all the time. But this case seems like it is gold diggers going after the cops after the case was dismissed from criminal court, otherwise how did it take nearly two years to get a trial?
The only thing that keeps stuff like that from happening is tireless practice, otherwise the "we were in a house and someone pointed a gun at me and I shot him/her because of the adrenaline and nerves" defense gets kind of old. I am no cop, let alone a SWAT member, but I know the way to keep things from being reactionary instead of calculated is incessant practice. I wonder if Artson was a rookie/green SWAT member and if he has been involved in other shootings.
Don't get me wrong, I support law enforcement fully, those guys are in harm's way all the time. But this case seems like it is gold diggers going after the cops after the case was dismissed from criminal court, otherwise how did it take nearly two years to get a trial?
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Incorrect. Practice is only ONE way to keep stuff like that from happening. A BETTER way is to curb the use of No-Knocks in the first place. No-Knocks like this one put good cops in needless danger, get innocent citizens killed and undermine the fundamental guarantees of the Bill of Rights for all of us.
Rich
"Incorrect. Practice is only ONE way to keep stuff like that from happening. A BETTER way is to curb the use of No-Knocks in the first place. No-Knocks like this one put good cops in needless danger, get innocent citizens killed and undermine the fundamental guarantees of the Bill of Rights for all of us".
Rich
bingo!right on!yes.. way!.
Id vote "rich for the next president"...we need a change.people are getting tired of all the shennanigans these days.I know I am.
Rich
bingo!right on!yes.. way!.
Id vote "rich for the next president"...we need a change.people are getting tired of all the shennanigans these days.I know I am.
Battering down doors in the dead of night and tossing in flash-bangs is not right. Yes, even if the house is full of tweakin' Commie Islamofascist bomber child-abusers illegally converting longarms to full-auto while mainlining decaf Dran-o, it's not right.
Among other things, door-kicking and flash-bangs make it more likely the officers are gonna pop a cap in the bad guy's hapless little innocent victims, who -- last time I checked -- were supposed to be the real focus of all this, with chalkin' up points by taking out or apprehending malefactors the second or third objective on the list, behind "saving the immediate victims" and "protecting society."
If "officer safety" is the excuse for tactics better suited to the Battle of Stalingrad, why not be safer still and get the suspects one-by-one as they shop for groceries? Why not surround the house with armed and armored Officers Of The Law and call 'em up on the phone? Few people -- and fewer tweakers -- are set up for a siege. Cut the power and water and wait a few days. Yeah, it's not exciting. But you end up burying fewer grandmothers.
On the topic of "tweaking:" there've been no few reports of LEOs using, ahem, performance-enhancing drugs in much the same manner as NFL players. Funny thing, those reports and mistakenly-dead no-knocks rise at about the same time and with similar rates. Connection? Well, a fellow on steroids is usually not much minded to sit and wait.... Perhaps it's all Merely A Coincidence.
You betcha.
Among other things, door-kicking and flash-bangs make it more likely the officers are gonna pop a cap in the bad guy's hapless little innocent victims, who -- last time I checked -- were supposed to be the real focus of all this, with chalkin' up points by taking out or apprehending malefactors the second or third objective on the list, behind "saving the immediate victims" and "protecting society."
If "officer safety" is the excuse for tactics better suited to the Battle of Stalingrad, why not be safer still and get the suspects one-by-one as they shop for groceries? Why not surround the house with armed and armored Officers Of The Law and call 'em up on the phone? Few people -- and fewer tweakers -- are set up for a siege. Cut the power and water and wait a few days. Yeah, it's not exciting. But you end up burying fewer grandmothers.
On the topic of "tweaking:" there've been no few reports of LEOs using, ahem, performance-enhancing drugs in much the same manner as NFL players. Funny thing, those reports and mistakenly-dead no-knocks rise at about the same time and with similar rates. Connection? Well, a fellow on steroids is usually not much minded to sit and wait.... Perhaps it's all Merely A Coincidence.
You betcha.
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Instead of generalizing about what's right and wrong, all the time mixing this instance into the generalizations, let's see what the facts are.
The area surrounding Baltimore resembles a war zone in many places. Until someone states the facts of the case for us, we're all too many of us ready to drag up any and every tin-foil hat scheme we've ever heard, happily piling on.
There's no way that the Baltimore County Police Department randomly chooses trash cans to rumage through. The fact that they had enough evidence to obtain a warrant also calls many of the statements here into doubt. As to why the officer shot the woman, and the sequence of those shots, is information that has already been given to a Grand Jury. Their decision is obvious.
You're listening to the opening salvo of a civil suit. Of course the attorney wants to make it sound as terrible as possible. Is there some reason that many here would accept that statement as any more true than that of the police, who have already had a Grand Jury investigation?
The area surrounding Baltimore resembles a war zone in many places. Until someone states the facts of the case for us, we're all too many of us ready to drag up any and every tin-foil hat scheme we've ever heard, happily piling on.
There's no way that the Baltimore County Police Department randomly chooses trash cans to rumage through. The fact that they had enough evidence to obtain a warrant also calls many of the statements here into doubt. As to why the officer shot the woman, and the sequence of those shots, is information that has already been given to a Grand Jury. Their decision is obvious.
You're listening to the opening salvo of a civil suit. Of course the attorney wants to make it sound as terrible as possible. Is there some reason that many here would accept that statement as any more true than that of the police, who have already had a Grand Jury investigation?
I also dislike speculation, so what are the facts that are known?
While there is no evidence, I get pretty nervous over the possibility that the police may have felt that a no-knock SWAT raid was warranted because they might have known that someone in the house owned a gun.
- The police conducted a no-knock raid in the wee hours of the morning;
- A woman standing in her bedroom with a gun was killed by the police;
- The other people in the house were charged with misdemeanor drug possession and released on their on recognizance, and;
- [A bit of negative evidence] I have seen no claims that anyone in the house had a criminal history.
While there is no evidence, I get pretty nervous over the possibility that the police may have felt that a no-knock SWAT raid was warranted because they might have known that someone in the house owned a gun.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Negative. According to the news report the Prosecutor refused to prosecute. The Grand Jury never heard the case.
Rich
Thank you, sir. In that case, the DA had to review all of the pertinent information?
There is still not enough information available as to the reason for the warrant service proceedure. Until we moved to Georgia last June, we lived about 20-25 miles from Balto. Co. They were known more for PC behavior in the PD than for vigorous enforcement of law. It may have been that PC factor that turned this into such a problem. The senior staff of the BCPD are all political appointees, and set department SOP. They may have specified the type of response in that SOP.
As I said, there isn't enough information here to judge, much less convict, anyone for the actions.
There is still not enough information available as to the reason for the warrant service proceedure. Until we moved to Georgia last June, we lived about 20-25 miles from Balto. Co. They were known more for PC behavior in the PD than for vigorous enforcement of law. It may have been that PC factor that turned this into such a problem. The senior staff of the BCPD are all political appointees, and set department SOP. They may have specified the type of response in that SOP.
As I said, there isn't enough information here to judge, much less convict, anyone for the actions.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
JR-
I, too, spent 4 years in Bawlamer. It's hardly East LA.
But that isn't the issue; nor is the issue our ability to put these cops on trial based on the info available. Respectfully, the ISSUE, sir, is the fact that a mother is dead; shot to death in her own bedroom in the middle of the night by agents of the government sworn to protect and serve. And what were the fruits of the raid? One Mis-D, released on recognizance, drug bust.
Now THAT is a subject for which we have enough info to properly discuss, analyze and come to conclusion. My conclusions are simple:
1) The cops never should have been there under these circumstances in the first place; and it happens FAR too often, for increasingly diminishing fruits of the search;
2) THIS woman never should have been placed in a position of having to identify the invaders of her bedroom from a dead sleep in the first place;
3) The officers may have acted appropriately, but only if they can sleep well at night with the excuse that they "were only following orders";
4) The State let this family down and killed a Mother needlessly. Her life is over; no more sunrises; her children will grow up without her.
5) Too many, in the public and even on this board, encourage these types of raids by dismissing lost lives, such as Cheryl Noel's, under the guise of "Well, she must have done something wrong". Just how low do we want to drop the bar to warrant a summary sentence of DEATH?
Rich
I, too, spent 4 years in Bawlamer. It's hardly East LA.
But that isn't the issue; nor is the issue our ability to put these cops on trial based on the info available. Respectfully, the ISSUE, sir, is the fact that a mother is dead; shot to death in her own bedroom in the middle of the night by agents of the government sworn to protect and serve. And what were the fruits of the raid? One Mis-D, released on recognizance, drug bust.
Now THAT is a subject for which we have enough info to properly discuss, analyze and come to conclusion. My conclusions are simple:
1) The cops never should have been there under these circumstances in the first place; and it happens FAR too often, for increasingly diminishing fruits of the search;
2) THIS woman never should have been placed in a position of having to identify the invaders of her bedroom from a dead sleep in the first place;
3) The officers may have acted appropriately, but only if they can sleep well at night with the excuse that they "were only following orders";
4) The State let this family down and killed a Mother needlessly. Her life is over; no more sunrises; her children will grow up without her.
5) Too many, in the public and even on this board, encourage these types of raids by dismissing lost lives, such as Cheryl Noel's, under the guise of "Well, she must have done something wrong". Just how low do we want to drop the bar to warrant a summary sentence of DEATH?
Rich
To DonR101395...
Replace dope with alcohol or tobacco, would you still consider it not to be child abuse because it's legal? How do we even know if this woman was addicted? What if she just smoked weed because she enjoys it in moderation like anyone would with alcohol or tobacco? Also, I must say DonR101395 if you woke up STARTLED in the middle of the night with no announcment that police are at your door, and all you hear are the flashbang and that battering ram wouldn't you go armed thinking it was a BG because you don't know it's the police until it's too late? Who's to say a BG couldn't construct his own version of a flashbang if he knew his chemistry? Also, I believe what liliysdad was trying to say is that there are bigger crimes to take care of than to raid someone's home just over something so trivial, should it turn out that this woman was not a dealer and the "trace amount of drugs" is just that, a small amount for personal consumption not intended to harm anyone. Also, I'm sure anyone in LE knows this personally that sometimes a bad cop will plant drugs on people just for an excuse to bust them.
Liliysdad I totally agree with what you have to say, there are bigger problems out there than recreational drug users that harm no one. So far, it does seem that this was overkill, and what I wish to know is what was the warrant for when they raided the house? I don't mean to take sides here, but if LE are supposed to be the good guys they have to follow and operate by the procedures they were trained under and to follow the LAW, not go blasting into houses with the "Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" attitude. Now suppose this warrant was to ambush a house that had an illegal cache of weapons, and amounts of drugs that qualify as "intent to sell" that was run by gang members, and it was positively identified as such, then I could understand that attitude in order for LE to remain safe while making arrests.
Epyon
Replace dope with alcohol or tobacco, would you still consider it not to be child abuse because it's legal? How do we even know if this woman was addicted? What if she just smoked weed because she enjoys it in moderation like anyone would with alcohol or tobacco? Also, I must say DonR101395 if you woke up STARTLED in the middle of the night with no announcment that police are at your door, and all you hear are the flashbang and that battering ram wouldn't you go armed thinking it was a BG because you don't know it's the police until it's too late? Who's to say a BG couldn't construct his own version of a flashbang if he knew his chemistry? Also, I believe what liliysdad was trying to say is that there are bigger crimes to take care of than to raid someone's home just over something so trivial, should it turn out that this woman was not a dealer and the "trace amount of drugs" is just that, a small amount for personal consumption not intended to harm anyone. Also, I'm sure anyone in LE knows this personally that sometimes a bad cop will plant drugs on people just for an excuse to bust them.
Liliysdad I totally agree with what you have to say, there are bigger problems out there than recreational drug users that harm no one. So far, it does seem that this was overkill, and what I wish to know is what was the warrant for when they raided the house? I don't mean to take sides here, but if LE are supposed to be the good guys they have to follow and operate by the procedures they were trained under and to follow the LAW, not go blasting into houses with the "Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" attitude. Now suppose this warrant was to ambush a house that had an illegal cache of weapons, and amounts of drugs that qualify as "intent to sell" that was run by gang members, and it was positively identified as such, then I could understand that attitude in order for LE to remain safe while making arrests.
Epyon