Another Shoot or Don't Shoot Thread... With a Twist

[willson73]

Something else to consider

Based on the scenario, I'm assuming that the robber is armed and presenting his weapon, and pointing it at me. I don't care how 'calmly' the robber is acting, if someone has the immediate opportunity, and I perceive there is intent (a gun pointed at me) I'm shooting. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I'm not talking about protecting my money or store, I don't want that bad guy to very calmly shoot me!

 

[oystermick]

Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong. You might want to explain to him that stealing from hard working folk is not the correct thing to do. Ask him gently why he's so angry as to use a gun to take what isn't his. Offer him your money and roll over and beg for your life explaining that you are a good liberal and you're against the death penalty. Should he not be gone with your money at this point, ask him the one second you need to kiss your ass goodby.

Quite frankly, it's a stupid question.

 

[one-shot-one]

what i mean

"Exactly why would you respect a felon"
i mean you should respect the fact that if he is willing to point a gun at you he is willing to "destroy" you and therefore no matter how calm or polite he may be behaving other than pointing the gun at you, you should do what ever is nessacery to make sure that you are the one to walkaway from this situation not him!

 

[Creature]

Since I can not read the mind of the robber, I can only go by what I am presented with...a person pointing at me what I must presume is a loaded weapon. Since he is pointing it at me and demanding something that I have, I can only presume that he is prepared to shoot me for it. I am not ready to die just yet, so I would draw and shoot him first.

I am not protecting my money or merchandise by shooting him...I am protecting my life because he is pointing a gun at me while committing a crime.

 

[stephen426]

Decide now whether you are going to act to protect yourself from an immediate threat or take your chances on getting murdered in order to protect your family from one that probably only exists in your imagination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just even more unlikely than the BG not shooting or in some other way harming you if you comply.

Anyway, if your family is so concerned, encourage them to get the training they need to keep themselves safe. If they refuse, it's on them at that point when they are not with you. You're only one man.

Thank you. Your response is the most on point so far. I have already decided to carry and defend my life with lethal force if needed. I made that decision years ago when I first started carrying.

My parents and my wife did raise some valid concerns so I figured I would ask the forum their opinion. I find it rather pathetic that our legal system allows the family of scumbag criminals to sue when they get what they deserved even though the courts have ruled it a justifiable self-defense shooting. The retaliation concern is also valid and no amoount of coaxing or pleading can force my wife or parents to become sufficiently proficient with a firearm to defend themselves. Even if armed, there is still the possibility that they could be killed. After all, even lucky shots kill. You also need to consider that there is a tremendous amount of information that is public record and bad guys have equal access to this info. I do not advocate rolling over by any means, but it does give one something to think about.

Would the results change if the robber was an obvious gang banger? I'm saying it could go wither way since there is a higher likelihood of retaliation. There is also a possibility that this is an "initiation robbery/killing" where he will kill you no matter what.

Just a quick question... Does anyone have access to reliable data that shows what percentage of robberies involve shots fired vs. no shots fired? I would hate for those results to support my parents stance of no resistance, no injuries.

 

[Dwight55]

This is a tough call, . . . no matter which way you go. There is no percentage call on "holding him for the cops", . . . it's either comply or shoot, . . . and I'll have to go for the shoot based on two reasons:

First, . . . because of no mask, he is no pro, . . . he may be a junkie (need to look for those signs), . . . he may be a newbie to armed robbery, . . . or he may be so desperate that he just pulled his gun and went for it. In any case, you do not have a stable individual facing you.

Secondly, . . . he was distracted, . . . not focused, . . . therefore he probably does not have a plan, . . . he's making this up as he goes, . . . and if he suddenly realizes I'm making mental notes of his blue shirt, tattered jeans, Georgia boots, and Cleveland Browns ball cap, . . . I'm dead.

Conclusion, . . . as soon as he is distracted, . . . I'm drawing and moving. He may be able to shoot a moving target, . . . probably can't. I only have to pause long enough to put two in him, . . . move again, . . . check for need of another two. I know the store, . . . he doesn't, . . . and if I get a chance, . . . I'm out the door. Leo's can check on him when they get there.

May God bless,
Dwight

 

[obxned]

SHOOT! My mama didn't raise no fools, and she sure as heck don't want to have to bury one.

 

[coolhandluke4]

shoot him. Repeat until desired results are obtained.

My great aunt was killed during a robbery in her convenience store, she had complied with the robber. Sawed off shotgun to the chest. I'd been to her store a couple hours earlier.

 

[ragwd]

Shoot center mass twice while moving to cover (not just concealment). Reassess the situation and make sure you have stopped the deadly threat to your life. Before he made the fatal mistake of looking away, the situation seemed calm but thats no guarantee that it will stay that way. He could become agitated that you didn't have enough cash or someone else could walk in and upset him and shoot not only you but everyone else in the area. These situations can be very dynamic. Money being insured is not a variable. Some one is threatening your life, thats is the only point. Whether he is calm or not isn't a variable either. The gun will kill you no matter what his state of mind. I doubt he would have a Cleveland Browns hat on. We just beat Houston today to go to 7-4 for the season so all Browns fans a at the bar celebrating

 

[Neal in GA]

Shoot him. He came in with a gun. That's threat enough. Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Then take his gun away from him and call the police and paramedics for him.

 

[XD Gunner]

Exactly why would you respect a felon who has violated your business, is attempting to steal your profits, intimidate your clients and bring lethal weapons within firing distance?

He was stating "respect" as in, "I'll treat you, as you are treating me"

Seriously. The question, and ONLY question, you should ask yourself, is "Do I want to make sure I see my loved ones tonite?" If you answer yes, draw and fire.

 

[kgpcr]

What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events. i go with the flow and can think on my feet and will deal with each situation as it presents itself. My Marine Corps training taught me that. I can think under stress and can act under stress. You wont get that kind of training here or on some weekend gun camp. You can plan all you want but when the lead starts to fly the plans go right out the window and you have to be able to think under stress and make good decisions in a heartbeat.

 

[Gamisou]

I would shoot him in his crotch (hopefully taking out his pelvic bone support) so he drops to the floor. Jump the counter etc, get on top of him kicking his gun away. If he fumbles trying to fight manipulating the gun, double tap, continue till he complies. Hold him gunpoint from a safe distance, make him interlock fingers on back of his head, face down. Wait for reinforcements.

I do not want anyone thinking they could get away with doing something like that. That would be my main concern. If its done successfully once, it will happen again. Thus putting people in danger more than they already have been. As far as revenge from his family, thats why I carry every day. He was wrong, he paid the consequences. Not looking to kill the guy, but when his low life friends hear about his injury, I don't think anyone will be thinking its an attractive idea to replicate. Meat and potatoes stay intact.

 

[kgpcr]

Big problem here! NEVER shoot to wound! Shoot center mass. why wound him and piss him off?? I dont think you would ever have to worry about the scenario ever happening but unless you need a prisoner to get intel from, never try and wound, shoot to stop and take yourself out of danger for good. if shooting to wound would suffice then you should not shoot at all

 

[Quadvet]

CoolhandLuke got it right, sorry about your great aunt.

I'm not talking about protecting my money or store, I don't want that bad guy to very calmly shoot me!

Agreed.

Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong.

:barf:

Does anyone have access to reliable data that shows what percentage of robberies involve shots fired vs. no shots fired?

I don't PLAN to be on the wrong end of those statistics (shot).

 

[stephpd]

Shoot him

It seems he made his intent clear when he robs you at gun point. If he didn't have intent to kill he could rob you without the gun. By using a gun he thought that it might be nessesary to kill to get what he wants.
If the opportunity to stop the threat presents itself I would take it. This is the mindset of carrying for self-protection. I can't read their minds but a gun in my face isn't something I take lightly. If they become distracted and I have a chance they will never try that on me again.

 

[Tanzer]

Quote:
Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong.

Pretty sure he was just kidding.

I would shoot him in his crotch (hopefully taking out his pelvic bone support) so he drops to the floor. Jump the counter etc, get on top of him kicking his gun away.

Very unrealistic.

What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events.

You are 99.7% correct. In the grand scheme of things, I agree. But, and this is a BIG BUTT ()(), Whenever something major happens, we always say; "Wow, never thought that could happen". A local Jewelry store up here was "attemptedly" robbed, and the BG caught 4-5 center mass (didn't live to tell his sob-story). Everyone in town thought; "Wow, never thought it could happen".
Notice if you will; We "reasonable folk" debate this kind of thing, BG's do not. They plan, and may even debate whether they should or shouldn't do it, but I'd lay odds that less than 10% wrestle with the morality of it. THERE is the big difference. I could be wrong on that because I've never entertained the thought of robbery - armed or not, so my 10% deal is a guess (guy needs to pay for Grandma's operation etc), but I doubt I'm far off.

 

[stephen426]

What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events. i go with the flow and can think on my feet and will deal with each situation as it presents itself. My Marine Corps training taught me that. I can think under stress and can act under stress. You wont get that kind of training here or on some weekend gun camp. You can plan all you want but when the lead starts to fly the plans go right out the window and you have to be able to think under stress and make good decisions in a heartbeat.

Not to be arguementative, but what is the point of your post? We carry so that we are prepared for the unexpected. What if we already drink skim milk and eat less red meat? You might call this scenario silly or what not. IF you don't believe in bad guys, just turn on your local news. I happen to live in a big city that has an above average crime rate (Miami, FL). I just happen to OWN a franchise (restaurant) where 6 have been hit in the last few months (maybe due to their sheeple weapons policy). Maybe I should just go and hide in a bunker and be safe. I like where I live and I like my business. The threat of robbery is a real one and one manager (of a corporate store) has been killed. With your mentality, why bother carrying at all? In that case, why bother to post other than to troll?

 

[kgpcr]

Not a troll at all but why sit around and think of things that may happen? train and be prepared! But you dont have to sit and wait for the worst to happen. many of these are so far fetched i would worry more about being hurt by falling space garbage than the scenario happening.

 

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

So it looks like you are really more concerned with the likelihood of retaliation than anything else.

Chances are unless this guy is part of a real gang with real gangsters you and yours will be safe after the fact. Just because a group of guys call themselves a gang and jump other people into it doesn't necessarily mean they are hardcore. Those are very few and far between. You (or your family) must have seen that Kevin Bacon movie Death Sentence huh? Not trying to be funny here.

But I think the greatest concern is stop the immediate threat (guy with gun). The future has so many possibilities that it is worth considering but not enough to stop your gut instincts to prevent an immediate robbery and potential shooting.

If your folks are concerned about their safety in the event you have to do something like this to protect yourself I'd recommend that you make every attempt you can to get them into "this thing of ours" and help them get the hardware or training that may one day save their lives. My wife is/was ALMOST an anti but she has some training scheduled early next year to be topped off with the gun of her choice and CHL training. She realized that I cannot be with her every moment of every day and it may be on her to protect herself and my son one day and wants to be prepared to do so.