Annealing

S

Stats Shooter

New member
I would like to have a brief conversation regarding annealing. I have somewhat recently began annealing after about a decade of reloading. Before I began annealing, with the exception of semi-auto guns, I knew that a piece of brass was done when the neck would split either upon firing or sizing. (with semi-auto rifles i usually retired them before the necks split due to dings, dents, and chewed up case heads).

Just like everyone else has noticed, once a piece of brass has been fired and sized 3-4 times, seating bullets gets more difficult AND you will have some cases that seat easily while some are more stiff. This leads to erratic velocities, and variations in seating depth.But since I have gotten into competition shooting, consistent neck tension/bullet hold is much more important than it used to be for me. Also, getting consistent sizing gets more difficult with work hardened brass because the spring-back effect is greater, and again there will be some variation within a lot where some spring back more than others and annealing helps correct this.

Of course the other added benefit of annealing besides more consistnet bullet hold/seating and sizing is the additional case life.

But the questions I have are regarding how often to anneal for brass intended for different purposes. I have and will continue to anneal after every firing my competition brass for reasons mentioned above, but.....

If you are annealing for longevity only, what is recommended as far as frequency? Does the cartridge factor into this i.e. a lower pressure cartridge .308 vs. a higher pressure magnum cartridge?

How about for hunting brass where you may not be sorting cases/bullets but still want decent accuracy?

What about pistol brass? I have only done rifle so far with great results but im nervous about pistol brass because of how short it is and how easy it would be to heat the casehead.

Also, when do you retire a case that has been annealed and fired thus the neck isn't splitting or the casehead isn't chewed up?
 
The ony rounds I've had to anneal are the Weatherby magnums.
About three shot is maximum before annealing.
You can feel the brass when it is hard once you are use to it. It is like knowing plastic or aluminum or steel by feel.
I've had several split necks and I have had some necks collapse, from over annealing, when seating the bullet. Happens less when you have a boat tail bullet but not rebated boat tail bullets.
I stand, my empty cases without spent primer in a pan of water about 3/4 to the height of the case. using either Mapp or Propane, heat it to just cherry no hotter, and tip the case into the water.
They make sophisticated annealing machines/devices which are more consistent.
I'm not familiar with them. Saw my first one on Hunting show a day or two ago You are probably familiar with the look of much military ammo with the scorched annealed area of the neck and shoulder.
 
Just put the cases in water like Tinbucket said.
Same with pistol brass- submerge just past the case head.
There is no need to tip the cases over- it doesn't matter how they are cooled.
 
Just put the cases in water like Tinbucket said.
Same with pistol brass- submerge just past the case head.
There is no need to tip the cases over- it doesn't matter how they are cooled
Click to expand...

My method is an Annealezz automatic annealer. I put Tempilaq 750 inside the neck, Tempilaq 700 on and just below the shoulder, and Tempilaq 450 2/3- half way up the case for safety. The Tempilaq is only applied to 10 or so old useless cases of the same cartridge until I get the spinning wheel adjusted and timing down.

My concern is with the safety of short pistol cases such as 40 S&w and with the questions stated below regarding frequency.
 
I don't know how your annealer works.
I know a pan of water and a torch works fine.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it does. I'm not one of those pretentious types who thinks low tech isn't effective. I'm just saying I use an auto annealer.
 
As Bill says torch and water works. In fact the method was suggested by Norma years ago and I have quoted it a good number of times . They as cartridge makers ,and they reload too , should know what they are doing !! :)
 
I wasn't questioning methods.... Mainly asking about frequency under certain circumstances. And I guess methods to some extent with respect to pistol brass.
 
I have never annealed pistol brass and have some 45, 38/357 and 45 Colt that I have reloaded countless times, splits are extremely rare (and I do mean extremely). Generally, you'll toss them when the head is so beat up from the extractor that they just need to be tossed.
 
Annealing rocks!

I have had extensive experience with both reloading as well as annealing. First, the cases prone to splitting are necked cartridges although I have gotten straight cases to split with the number of reloads exceeding 8-9 times on average. Necked cases will do it much sooner.

As far as the process, as long as you're not actively heating the base it isn't likely you'll have an issue. I have a machine that anneals brass but I have tried to over heat them without much luck. I even anneal straight brass simply because I can but not because it is that necessary.
 
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As far as the process, as long as you're not actively heating the base it isn't likely you'll have an issue. I have a machine that anneals brass but I have tried to over heat them without much luck. I even anneal straight brass simply because I can but not because it is that necessary.
Click to expand...

Yea I'm not too worried about my methods being unsafe in rifle cartridges even as short as .223. using 450 Tempilaq (temperature sensitive liquid). I tested to see what it took to begin annealing the casehead and you have to wayyy over anneal the neck and shoulder to get to that point. Dipping them in water is un-necessary, I can pick them up near the casehead with my bare fingers immediately and it isn't hot, the liquid just confirms this

But as for pistol brass
First, the cases prone to splitting are necked cartridges although I have gotten straight cases to split with the number of reloads exceeding 8-9 times on average. Necked cases will do it much sooner.
Click to expand...

Then I guess it isn't worth it? I suppose if it prolongs my more expensive and well cared for .44 REM mag, .357 mag, and 10 mm cases...But like you said, my .40 s&w, and 10mm chew up the case head a bit
 
Split necks are usually about champhering the case mouth to much with bottle neck cartridges and with straight wall pistol case's, flaring the mouth to much to seat a bullet.
 
Check the Chrono Graph

If you want see how your free hand annealing works just check the results of the speed trap. I did, I have an annealer on order.
 
Missisippi:

Once every 5 rounds for non competition seems to be a pretty good recommendation.

I know competition shooters pretty much do it each firing.

I will let someone who actually knows to comment on pistol, never had one split and never been an issue and I think not needed due to the different between straight wall and bottle neck - but that's an opinion not a fact. Exception made for bottle necked pistol cartridge of course and a straight wall rifle cartridge probably does not either.

And while I won't argue with some of the posters, the technical fact is if you have heated a case neck and or shoulder up to cherry red, then its far too much. Only good part is it is simply now and forever too soft and not a safety issue.

Also, if you have ever worked with a line that has water in it, you will know you can not solder it. That's because the heat is gone fast than you can get it up to temperature, I am not talking about full, I am talking about even a slow drip. So, again, tipping it over does nothing as the thing is over annealed but only at the neck and shoulder, so its also not a safety issue.

So after over annealing cases, tipping them over does what? as the heat can't go below the water line anyway. No I am not criticizing or questioning , just some technical comments for those who think that it is the correct method and follow it. .

And I have an induction annealer on the way as well.
 
Split necks are usually about champhering the case mouth to much with bottle neck cartridges and with straight wall pistol case's, flaring the mouth to much to seat a bullet.
Click to expand...

Split necks may split for other reasons as stated, the primary cause is fire hardened/streteched and loss of correct anneal.

Again that's a technical fact for others who may read this, its not a criticism of the poster or trying to change his mind.
 
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I do it after when its all as clean as it gets.

My brother is now doing a complete clean and reports less odor but oddly more time to get the anneal correct.

I suppose if you have pushed them to the edge the last sizing might push them over, but I do every 5 and had no issues.
 
Is it better to anneal before sizing, or after? I prefer before, but?
Click to expand...

It has been recommended to me to anneal before sizing. Especially if it is match ammo. That way you get a good consistent sizing. And case prep is key to accuracy. I have found that since I have begun annealing my match ammo before sizing, that case head to Datum measurements are all within 0.0005. Before, due to spring back and different hardness, I struggle to get a consistent sizing.

So I de-capp, then tumble in wet tumbler. Then anneal, then size with body die, then neck size, then trim, then polish in dry media, then throw powder and seat bullets.
 
I anneal every 5 firings, or whenever split neck happens. Rifle and pistol calibers alike , except the one that has plentiful brass supply, 9mm, 45acp etc, which I don't anneal at all. I routinely have 20 firings before having to retire a batch of brass.

-TL
 
"So I de-capp, then tumble in wet tumbler. Then anneal, then size with body die, then neck size, then trim, then polish in dry media, then throw powder and seat bullets."

Pretty much the order I do mine in. De-prime, wet tumble and dry, anneal every 4th reload, size (size only, no expander ball), trim, M die neck expander.

What I found before going to the wet tumble was with the powder cooked on the inside of the case and neck, the annealing (using an induction "Annie") was varying from case to case. By wet tumbling and getting the inside as clean as the outside, the annealing is the same with no variation in appearance. And, no smoke curling off an occasional case. Does it make a difference?...I don't know, tensions seating bullets are uniform to a T now so I would guess on the side of yea.

I would add, I have yet to split a neck on anything, pistol or rifle, and I don't anneal my pistol brass, 9mm and .38.
 
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