Annealing, Grain Structure

Simply because electro-magnetic annealing heats evenly from within, instead of applying heat from outside.
The idea is to realign grain structure, 'Vibrating' on the molecular level helps with that also.

It's simply more efficient at the given task.

I'd be glad to use flame since I have a ton of leftover crap here, but sectioning/samples say induction is more consistent than any torch rig I could come up with.
The only thing that came close was a bank of nozzles, turned down fairly low, and that requires a shuttle of some kind to control time exposure.
A lot of work & hardware for 100 cases or less.
 
JH:

I don't use the M die for flare (few if any flat based target bullets these days) , just a final process that replaced the very draggy ball of the regular dies.

I find it a lot smoother and reportedly less stress out of the neck.

It seems to work a lot better, I have taken the balls out of my dies so they are steers now!
 
As noted, I use the Ferite coil on the Annie and does fine.

I am not into production, I can do 500 cases in maybe 20 minutes by hand.

I keep enough cases on hand that I can run a month or so of shooting before I have to cycle another round of them through.

As the anneal is once every 3 to 5 for me its not an issue.
 
Simply because electro-magnetic annealing heats evenly from within, instead of applying heat from outside.
The idea is to realign grain structure, 'Vibrating' on the molecular level helps with that also.

It's simply more efficient at the given task.
Click to expand...

I'll grant you that point but at at the price is it cost efficient ?

We are dealing with less than 10 grains of brass .015 thick spinning in a 3600 F flame. Brass has a thermal conductivity of 122 which means it heats very evenly. Not as good as copper whose TC is over 400 but pretty darn good and in the top 5 materials.

And once again I have to bring out that the Annies instruction manual on calibration consists of put a little templaq on the neck, put the case about here and see if the templaq melts. I can't see where that is any more precise than put the blue cone of the flame here, put a little templaq on the neck and see if it melts.

If you want to drop a grand Amp you will get precision. With a $500 Annie you get no more precision than you can get from a 35 dollar regulated plumbers torch from a home store. That is the bottom line in all this. One heats it using chemically generated energy the other magnetic

I think where we differ is I could care less about the theory while to me you are into the forest so deep you forgot why you went there. No offense meant . I got lost a couple of times in theory land myself. For example I dumped a ton of money building water cooled computers a decade or so back just cause they were fun to build and the theory was fascinating

In my mind there are only 3 measures that would define proper annealing for the average reloader. Is the case and the method safe, do I get acceptable consistency in my velocities and do I get good case life. As long as I can meet those three criteria I will look to do it in the most cost effective manner I can.

BTW if I were the designer of the Annie and reading this thread I would start to work immediately figuring out how to provide better case placement and make it easy to set up to switch various cartridges. Some way to calibrate it other than paint a little templaq on the case and start low would help also
 
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I can't agree with that.

The Annie is consistent and the variables are very few (clean cases being about the only one)

Templaq on, and in the neck and watching it melt is vastly easier than a twirling case in a flame. and trying to assess it while holding it evenly.

Next step up is the rotary trays and twirly, still have the issue of torch, heat as pressure and you may even have different caloric values from bottle to bottle.

I can put the room dark and as noted in another post, I can see if there is ANY glow down inside the neck. Can't do that with a torch.

There are some people who look to have mastered it as a craft, but they are very meticulous. I can pretty casually run a few tests and be where I need to be.

I don't say if you like the torch and are happy with it that you should be dissuaded form its use.

But, for ease of use and consistent results for most, you can't beat the Annie.
 
And while I have written Garrett and he expressed the appreciating for improvements in the manual, he is also back ordered 4 to 6 weeks.

I would say he (Fluxion) is doing just fine.

I do appreciate he is taking input to get better functionality.

Some will never be convinced and that is fine as well.

If you are happy with your process then that is great.

I look at the investment I have in brass and have chosen to go a different way for very good reasons.

I think its much superior to the torch approach.

As long as someone goes into this as informed as possible, that is the goal.
 
Costs: Purely on the use of a torch, even is the Annie took the same energy per case as a torch, you are burning fuel regardless if a case is in the stream when the Annie is just sitting there until needed. for its two seconds.

So do some calcs as to how many propane cylinders you use for how much brass?

If you shoot a lot, I bet the Annie beats it in costs alone in 3 years (I figure I shoot at least 8,000 a year)

Amortize the cost of the Annie over say 10,000 cases. Cost per case is ?

I am going to use ball park here. $400 for the Annie (actually a bit less), 40,000 cases (call it 5 years shooting)

Cost per case? 1 cent. Use it for 10 or 15 years.

Bullets? 5 to 8 cent a case.

Primer: 3 cents a case.

Powder? 8 cents a case.

Case: 50 cents to $1 a case (good brass, once fired up to Lapua)

Propane: $3.50 a cylinder.

Always good to break out real costs.

I will see if I can get a KW hour for the Annie. Even at full boogie its like 15 cents for an hour, as its 1/5 that, 3 cents in power? Keep in mind our power cost are a lot higher than most places.

As I can process 10 a minute, in an hour that 600 cases for all of 15 cents (and its not going full boogie and have to see what the real energy use is )
 
I'm pretty satisfied with Annie, it's about as consistent as could hope a sub-$500 machine to be.
If you want fixtures, feeders etc then pay more money.
This is a power unit alone, the reason the machine is less than $500.

Garrett doesn't guarantee the impossible, he tells you this is the power unit, proper annealing is in your hands.
That's something a lot are going to have issues with, the part about it's in YOUR hands.

Fixture making is pretty easy, there are lots of materials out there that will with stand these tempratures,
And they are fairly cheap.
Shaping the Ferrite is a good way to get you MUCH closer to precisely what you want, a fiberglass wrap or two holds the case the designated distance off the Ferrite or coils and you are off to the races.
The fiber wrap is under $15 for a good size roll, and works perfectly fine.

Keep in mind an electrical engineer or designer isn't going to know the vairables of brass annealing in most cases, and NO ONE can anticipate the vairables a home annealer is going to introduce...
Again, that's up to you to learn, and control as many vairables as possible.

It might be "Down The Rabbit Hole", but identifying vairables, and controlling those vairables isn't 'Theory'... We are talking proven here, so a long way from 'Theory'...

Refining the process, figuring out what does (and doesn't) work is PRACTICE & EXPERIMENTATION, not theory.
It's the difference between TALKERS that parrot what they have heard, and finding the issues yourself & dealing with them.

My guess is, someone will make a shaped ferrite that's coated already, and that will be a game changer.

RC20, funny you mention energy costs, I'm off grid solar, about $28,000 in total, haven't paid an electric bill or taxes, line fees, ect in over 13 years.
Counting power price increases, the unit paid for itself in less than 9 years, 13 now and still have another 7 before the warranty on most stuff runs out.

Moved out of a house that could run $1,400 a month to just the power company, more on really cold months. Highest bill was $2,200.

No risk of fire, darn little risk of burns, low power consumption, I can't find faults if you actually use it once you pay for it.
My Annie Girard has run for 10 hours and not twitched the meter enough to notice.
 
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JeepHammer wrote:
For me it's about the END OBJECTIVE,...
Click to expand...

With respect to that, do you have sample photomicrographs that you could post showing what those of us who would be seeing this for the first time should be looking for in properly annealed samples, under-annealed samples and over-annealed samples?
 
This has been a great thread and I have learned a lot from what has been posted as well as doing my own research on the subject. But now I am simply repeating the same thing over and over so it is time to bow out

It is obvious that the Annie owners are going to continue to ignore the elephant in the room. That elephant being there is no way to see where the magnetic field in relation to the neck and shoulder and ensure that the case is placed in the exact same spot every time batch after batch. Fluxeon for whatever reason has provided no method other than eyeballing with which to get consistency in case placement. This is something cannot be disputed.

Just my opinion but if for my purposes of doing small lots of 50 to 100 if I were going to spend a lot of money on a annealing unit I would shell out 1100 for an AMP. It has been developed by engineers, has great product support, been thoroughly tested, and has the endorsement of several top shooters. It's designed so that I get consistent results every time with minimal effort and can be programmed to account for every factor including neck turned cases. The support seems to be excellent to the point where if you have some odd case they will test the cases in a real lab using professional equipment by trained personnel and recommend a program setting for that particular case. Switching between various cartridges is easier than changing reloading dies and no guess factor of any sort is needed.

However as much as I like the AMP's design before I drop 1100 bucks on one I am going to see if I can get acceptable results using a 35 dollar torch just like world class bench rest shooters have been using to anneal their cases and getting .1 groups and double digit reloads with for the last ??? years

I am going to calibrate my auto feeder using the same method that Fluxeon recommends for the Annie. Put a little 700 tempilaq inside the necks and start low with the time and work my way up until the tempilaq melts. Not exactly what I would label as precision but having no metallurgy laboratory or training it will be about as precise as I can get. If I can get factory quality SD's at the range it will be "good enough".

I will start a fresh thread in a month or so and post the results with some empirical data documenting what changes in velocity consistency I see at the shooting bench. Until then I have said all I have to say on the matter

Oh and JH any browser will display GIF or JPG formats. JPG is pretty much the standard these days and there are many free image converters on the net if your device's files are in some other format. If you have any questions on file formats just message me and I will be glad to help.

With that I am out of this thread unless someone posts some glaring misconception that I cannot resist correcting
 
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Go with what you know!
As far as Annie vs Amp, I don't own an Amp, so someone with both, and is willing to do the micrographs & pull testing does compare the two.
I suspect to will be little or nothing since induction heating is induction heating.

I've found hardness testing will get you 80% there.
Microstructure sections give you a real visualisation of what's happening, but I believe you could do without it.
Pull testing will get you to the 90% mark, but I don't believe it's the entire story.
I don't have the 'Perfect' way to do this, just adding to what I know a little at a time...

I may have to settle for 90% even after all this.
 
houndawg: No, we keep learning more, some stuff is repeated, but we do bring up more and various aspects.

In your case, energy cost and how does this compare cost wise? Good question and the gears start turning.
Now the goal is good rounds (amateur bench rest quality at least) so cost is not a full driving object (quality is) , but it is certainly a fact you have to consider in the budget (can I afford the up front cost vs the long term lower layout?)

At 1 cent a case, if even that, ROI vs a torch setup is?

Pretty clear that if you can afford the upfront, the ROI is much better if you process significant amounts of brass. More weight if you have all Lapua.

First I applaud your approach. If you don't want to spend that money and can get the consistency that satisfies you then that is all good.

I do advise others that the consistency and quality goal is not easy to achieve and much harder with a torch (I think that is fair)

Bringing up the position of the case in the Annie coil for consistency is relevant (I had not presented it, not sure why, too caught up in the other aspects.

I have solved the consistency of position of the case (variations needed for other cartridges) , right now I am running my 308 brass through as it is due)

As the coil is at a fixed height, I simply looked for a piece of material that had the required height to put the case in the same vertical relationship each time.

I had thought of drilling material (wood or plastic) to case size to do that but while I was looking around, I found a primer tray form CCI 200, hmmm, looks about the right height, flip upside down and it has 4 rectangular boxes in the back of it.

So over to the Annie I go, put a 308 case in the corner of the tray, wedge it in with my finger. I am sitting right in front of the machine so I can see the clearance left and righty is even, push the button and whalla!

All I have to do is raise the Annie up for 30-06 and 7.5.

Or I can drill material and have a setter for each caliber with the right height.

As noted by JH, I can get the case out of the Annie coil, pick up by the base and get it into the wonderful stainless steel medical instrument pans my wife got me before the heat gets to the base.

note: Some of the Pans were made in Sheboygan Wisconsin! 30 miles or so from where my mom was born. Pretty cool.


I cycle in one of my test cases with the Templaq on it from time to time to check quality of the setup.

Note: Fluxion advises running 10 case through first, which I do, I don't see any difference but do anyway as the Annie is supposed to be settling in, then they get run through after they have cooled off.

And long term, if you do enough brass, the Annie obviously pays for itself in saved energy costs. The AMP unit would take longer as it cost more.

I was disappointed as you went to comparing the AMP unit costs and did not stick with the Annie and what a Propane cylinder costs.

Or acknowledge what I think is a most interesting point, a torch is using energy all the time, the Annie (mostly other than the fan) only when you hit the button and then only two seconds or so.

Time wise I don't want to spend any more than I have to re-loading, I like to shoot and loading is a means to do that, its not therapy for me (some feel that way, I don't)

The Annie gets me where I want to be quickly and quite easily.
 
Bah! You guys keep sucking me back into this because as much as I am complaining I do love to do is learn and analyze.

@RC20

On the cost part I have a nice sum saved up in my "toys" account, enough to cover both an Annie and a AMP today but the would either be worth the bang for the buck ? No pun intended.

on some other points I bought a fresh propane cylinder yesterday and it cost $2.90 cents. That's less than 10 bullets in reloading money so operation coist of either electricity or gas is too small a factor to be concerned about.

I agree on the time factor but am confused at whether you plan on using the Annie with the Giraud case loader or doing 1 at a time. If you are doing one at a time I acknowledge that you can rig up a jig to make sure the cases are in the same relationship with the coil every time. You could probably even make a jig to ensure the coil is in the same place on a Giraud auto feeder but would have to readjust anytime you wanted to do a different sized case.

Then the question becomes how do you make sure that magnetic field is concentrated on the right spot on the case? Without a thermal imaging camera that would measure above 1000 F which would run you anywhere between 5K to 35K there is simply no way you can tell if that heat is concentrated on the neck, the shoulder or the case body.

What I find downright scary is when I look in the Annie manual http://fluxeon.com/downloads/Annie_Instruction_Manual.pdf

on page 6 the top picture shows the case sitting inside the coil while the neck is above it. I want to anneal the neck, not the case body and certainly not the head. It also appears that the case is way closer to the back of the coil than the front, but that could just be the angle from the camera and brings me back to the issue of consistent case placement within the magnetic field . Regardless of any short comings gas heating has at least I can see where the heat is being concentrated and adjust the position accordingly


@ Jeephammer

do you have a hydraulic press that is capable of fine control down to 1 psi? I was thinking you could rig up a K&M arbor press with a force indicator and a then rig up a V block and compress the neck at various pressures while measuring the deflection of the case neck with a second dial indicator. That would not be exact of course but would give a good idea of the necks elasticity and ductility properties. What you would really need is a press capable of fine pressure adjustment and expansion/compression collets to simulate what happens when the neck is compressed in the die and expanded in the chamber. Once again that carries way too steep of a price to just satisfy curiosity on a hobby level.

It would also be interesting to record the heat flow applied with a induction unit vs heat applied with a torch using one of those high end lab grade thermal imaging cameras. If anyone here has several grand burning a hole in their pocket they could post us some videos of a case being heated with a torch and one being heated with induction

Now back to my DIY case feeder, I hope to finish it this afternoon or tomorrow at the latest. So far I have less than a hundred bucks into it and I having a ball with the construction and assembling. If I find I want even more consistency I will drop a grand on the AMP, but that will not happen unless I am convinced I need more consistency than the DIY unit delivers
 
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RC20, like ai said, someone will make Ferrite or coils for specific case necks, something coated or encapulsated in thermal insulation where you can drop the case in mouth first, then you will have an Amp without the fixture for every different base.
I thought about it myself, but I do production, so flipping cases neck and feeding them that way is a deal breaker.

I do open coil and a Bakelite type material for new production when cases are exact diameter & length, bit that feeder doesn't work so hot with range pickup, on 9mm or 7.62 in the mix and you will spend HOURS clearing the jam and replacing shoes on the belt.

What I would really like to have is a cheap, simple way to feed from Dillon feeder to the Girard machine so it didn't take an hour filling that gravity bin.
I've done a couple on the fly conversions, they are glitchey at best, but I haven't spent the time to get one done that works 100% yet...

As for purpose, that's up to who ever is doing the annealing, case longevity being the goal, big cost savings there, 1 cent to anneal, average 10 cents for used cases, you do the math!
That savings alone should appeal to reloaders!

I'm looking for something different, a better resized, more consistent case.
Longevity is a bonus for me, not the objective.
I'm getting pretty close (relative terms) to getting ordinary milbrass to within 5% of ultra premium brass in terms of consistency.

Now, that doesn't exclude the other stuff, flash hole prep, champfering/deburring/trimming etc,
But the base brass itself is coming along quite well.
Since I shoot MOA or SUB MOA most times, that's not too bad with reconditioned milbrass,
I'm not shooting one hole bench groups, but can shoot one ragged hole and that's not too bad with milbrass through a rifle that didn't cost $10,000 to get built...

I use fixtures for testing sometimes, I'm old & beat up enough I can't shoot like I did, and I don't want a bad day to throw results off.
Most times it's about the Dyno results, seeing if I can get the neck tension just a little more consistent...
I've found the closer the neck tension spread, the better the group of the batch, so I'm going that way for now...
Could be only part of the story, but I won't know that without exhausting all avenues of experimentation.
I have to hope I'm not wasting a year of my off time anyway, but it's happened before.
(Precision neck length cutting comes to mind, that was a wasted year)
 
The Dyno I use is capable of 1/100 pound increments repeatably.
It's purpose isn't failure analysis, it's checking pressure flow through multi-step valving in a shock absorber.
Compression/extension.

This one is specifically built to test magnetic fluid valved shocks, valving rates can be changes several hundred times a second, so it has to be fast and precise.

Case collet in the bottom of the frame, bullet puller on the ram, and either pull or push the bullet in the case.
Movement in 0.001" increments, pressure at any of those increments.
You can watch pressure reduce as surface area reduces when bullet starts moving out of the neck.

Shock valves are VERY small & have several pressure bypass steps often times, and shocks come in all sizes, so it's pretty sensitive and I have free access to it.
(Testing shocks smaller than your little finger for example)
Thank goodness it's pretty well automated or I'd have to bribe an operator...
 
houndawg: Gotcha!

No, I am not using the Gerard, if I was I would be even more conservative and anneal more often as you will loose some precession going though a mechanical device.

And no, I do not know absolutely that its as uniform and perfect as you could hope for. Little in life is.

Notice though on the Lapua and PPU how far down the case the anneal is? The Graf picture and Midway blows up if you highlight it.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/73073

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/110311/lapua-reloading-brass-30-06-springfield-box-of-100

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=17181&cat=123&page=2

Its a good 3/8 of an inch down past the shoulder.

It either does not hurt or it helps longevity by the final anneal giving the shoulder area its flex as well.

What I can say is that in all the testing I have done, no matter where the templaq is inside or outside the case. I can creep up on the setting and as it hit (2 second currently and pun intended) the 750 deg templag just melts.

I have 800 on the way. Even that will not be absolute as we don't know if its reactivity is as fast as brass. It might under detect a fast build up like we have.

However, if the 750 just melts and the 800 not at all, we are about as close to the sweet spot as the world lets us get.

And I do disagree on cost.

You can dismiss it, and I agree its miner, but in the long run the propane costs will exceed the Annie costs and the AMP costs if you do enough brass.

More you use, the sooner the ROI.

Not that I am trying to persuade you in what direction to go, but it is relevant.

Saving $100 on a gun is an immediate warm and fuzzy, as a target shooter, its better to save on ammo, the gun may see $5000 in ammo go through it in its life (target shooting easily - hunting no, then it is cost of gun that has more weight)
 
well thanks to Jeephammer I now know more about induction than I ever wanted to know. I won't even attempt to try and make this a coherent post before my first cup of coffee so I will just list some bullet points

The Amp machine was designed specially for annealing cartridge brass. In their initial development they used thermal imaging camera but switched to Vicker's hardness testing. The machine was designed by a father and son team. The father was in the firearms industry and the son is a engineer and both are shooters and reloaders.

https://www.ampannealing.com/about/


Although the website for Fluxeon says the Annie was designed for reloading the first two generations of the machine were designed for neon sign construction and a you can still buy a hand held wand type coil for the Annie for doing just that.

http://fluxeon.com/heaters.html


Placement of the case in the coil and as well as the type of coil does make a difference. Of the coils available for the Annie I would prefer the split ferrite flux concentrator. The helical coil would spread the heat over too large a area for me to be comfortable with. In gas heating terms the helical coil would be a "rosebud" tip on the torch while a flux concentrator does just what it's name implies and concentrates the heat into a smaller area

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXMyx4bXUxk&ytbChannel=Fluxtrol

temperatures can also be modulated by the frequency and higher frequencies are better for rapid heating of small parts. From a laymans point of view I would guess that a frequency of 100 - 450 kHz would be used for cartridge brass since at .016 thickness little depth penetration is needed. Certainly less penetration would be needed than say if the machine was to be used to bend meta rods or glass tubes

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/hvac/95097-frequency-and-induction-heating/

All in all after doing a lot of reading I do have to agree that induction is really the ultimate way to for precise controllable heat source. However that would only be true for a machine that is designed, set up and calibrated for that purpose. Otherwise you simply have a very expensive invisible heat source. To anneal a case by holding it neck down inside a induction coil designed to heat metal or glass tubes or rods would be no more precise than using a plumbers torch. Less precise actually since with a plumber torch you can see where the heat is being concentrated and with a induction you would need to either use a thermal imaging camera or do hardness tests to insure that you are heating the parts of the case you want to heat and not heating the parts you do not want to

I can see a Amp annealing machine ending up on workbench before the end of the summer. First I will have to do a bit more testing using but if it suggests that annealing after every load lowers SD's and hopefully group sizes by giving me a more uniform neck tension I will drop the money into one. While the AMP would not be useful for someone who is doing 400 cases or more a week the shooter who shoots an average of 50 - 100 loads per week it seems to be ideal annealer. It was designed by reloaders for reloading and from everything I have can see it looks like they did a excellent job


For those who are already own a induction coil machine you can make a magnetic line viewer with some mineral oil, iron shavings and a clear container. It might or might not be useful to focus the energy where you want it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkSQX5VpYpQ&ytbChannel=Kevin Gittemeier


A $5000 to $35000 thermal imaging camera being or a lab quality hardness tester being ideal for testing and calibration but is out of the question at the hobby level money wise. Otherwise you are just guessing at where the hat is being concentrated and have less precision than you obtain with a 15 dollar plumbers torch. Not trying to burst anyone bubble here but for me that is the only obvious conclusion.

This are just my opinions and I am no engineer so anyone contemplating purchasing a induction machine should do some due diligence and think long and hard before plunking down 500 - 1000 dollars for either a Annie or a AMP.

I am still unsure whether lower SD's will reduce my group sizes and help eliminate flyers at my level of shooting skill. If I were a national level BR or F class shooter I would have a AMP being shipped to me as I type this. As a amateur who shoots high 180's /low 190s strings I am not convinced at this time that it would be worth the money for me. In a month or two I hope to have some empirical evidence with which to make my decision but for now I need to finish my DIY auto system and do a bit of testing before writing the check.
 
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