Annealing, Grain Structure

The annealing machine maker we are talking about does not make brass or necessarily have lots of it any more than someone who makes case trimmers would. This is just a home handloader's annealing machine, and not a case manufacturer's annealing setup.
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sorry then my bad. When people start talking about having lab tests that cost more than new brass I assume they are doing at least small production runs for a business, not the average home hobbyist
 
The discussion may be confusing because what Jeephammer is doing, production-wise, is serving as an experience base for describing what a home annealer might be able to do to get better information. At least, that's what I think is happening. :D
 
that is cool, Jeeps previous thread on annealing got me to thinking about consistency and is why I will be building a automatic system this weekend.
 
Seems like someone has already done the legwork and designed a induction annealing machine that is not only programmable for various cases and brands but also neck turned variants and even lot numbers from certain manufacturers. It sees as if they don't have your brass in the data base send them a piece and they will test it and program it into their firmware for free

For those looking for the perfect home annealing machine this looks like it might be your ticket. I might even consider one of these if my budget ever allows it if my DIY annealer does not give me consistent chrono results and I hear good things about this one



link -
https://www.ampannealing.com/index/
 
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Before you jump to the conclusion that annealer maker has things 'Scientifically' figured out,
Let me point out that myself & other users on just this little forum have written about the significance of CLEAN brass!
A few found out that the brass anneals differently when it's dirty than when it's clean, and by no small margin!

When you watch some of their videos showing off the annealer, then hardness testing (Vickers scale),
The brass SMOKES LIKE CRAZY!
Only brass that's dirty (inside or outside) smokes like that...

Annealing done to dirty brass then tested would be invalid results since there isn't a way to quantify 'HOW DIRTY', clean brass is clean brass, a consistent base line to start at.
And, like I and others have pointed out, the difference in annealing time is SIGNIFICANT at any given power/energy level, induction or flame.

What I'd like to point out here since everyone seems to be locked on either hardness or 'Spring' Back' as indicators...
Said it several times before, but it always bears repeating!

I don't shoot for any specification of 'Hardness' or lack of 'Hardness',
I don't use the idiots method of checking 'Spring Back' (vice grips on the neck, see if the neck 'Springs Back')...

I stress using a Dyno (compression/stretch testing machine) and that seems to get lost in translation...
What I do is anneal for any given time, at set power level, do about 50 cases,
Some are for hardness testing and/or sectioning (grain structure inspection)
10 or 20 get sized & get a bullet, then visit the Dyno.
What I'm looking for are CONSISTENT results from the Dyno.

The 'NECK HOLD' (Release Pressure) is dependant on the size of the expanders ball in the die vs the bullet diameter.
The smaller the ball, the more the bullet has to stretch the case neck to enter it, the higher the holding force.
That's NOT what I'm testing for, I don't care how much of an interference fit there is between neck & bullet, could be 12 pounds, a little tighter neck might produce 25 pounds...
Entire a function of the neck sizer ball, all else being equal...

What I want to do is give that neck sizer ball a brass that will resize CONSISTENTLY in the first place.
If a 10 round sample has an average of 12 pounds, I don't want to see 6 pounds through 18 pounds.
I want to see 11.5 to 12.5 pounds to reach that average of 12 pounds.

If the neck is a little harder, but coming out of the annealer CONSISTENTLY, the same die & sizer ball might produce 24 pounds average in a 10 round group,
Harder means the neck gets 'Crunched' down, but resists taking the sizer ball and returns more toward being 'Crunched' and you wind up with a smaller neck in the brass...

Even a little 'Harder' brass producing a 24 pounds average, I want to see a low of 22 pounds, and a high of 26 pounds to move that bullet,
Or better yet, a low of 23 pounds & high of 25 pounds.

A CONSISTENT brass product going into the die will produce a consistent brass product coming out of the die, doesn't matter any 'Specific' hardness...

And just for the record, the vice grips method is anything BUT scientific... And produces ZERO useable results even though I've seen it in print more times than I can count!
'Snap Back' is properly called 'Ductility'.
The softer the brass, the more you can work that brass without failures, and the better it will hold the shape you are trying to beat it into.

Harder brass will fail sooner in the working process, usually on the firing cycle, but neck splits aren't uncommon while sizing brass either...
Harder brass has to be worked harder to beat it into a useable shape.

Work hardening comes from firing cycles and sizing cycles, annealing removes stress, the first step in an annealing PROCESS, which is why I say ANY ANNEALING IS 'GOOD', as long as you don't overcook the brass...
Cooking the brass a little longer, or at higher temp, produces the second step in the PROCESS, which is RECOVERY, when the brass decreases hardness, increases DUCTILITY, and starts to form high angle grain structure again.

Stressed brass is full stretched grains, low grain angles, fist step takes the stress out of the brass, second step absorbs the broken slivers and free molicules causing stress, third step is grown big fat grains with high angle intersections between grains.

I find the most CONSISTENT brass is 1/4 to 1/2 hard, not dead soft, not super hard.
The RELEASE pressures become VERY consistent around 1/4 to 1/2 hard, with spreads between high & low pressures often under 10 pounds, sometimes under 5 pounds.
Compare that to brand new Lapua brass that produces 1 1/2 to 3 pound spreads pretty consistently, and you can really see the benefits annealing brings to the table.
 
The other flaw in the machine you posted, it's made in a 50 mHz
Running it on a 60 mHz power supply is seriously going to change the power output inside the machine, YouTube has owners complaining about overcooking the brass at recommended time settings & getting inconsistent results at best...
 
so Jeep you are saying you prefer the Annie induction unit where the only way to adjust is varying the length of time the machine is on. Seems to me you have to guess at the right time setting a few times and use a calibrated eyeball to adjust the cases position in the coil. I respect your opinion but I would have to disagree on this point.

As far as the 50/60 Hz part if retailers such as Grafs and Brownells/Sinclair are selling them I would suppose they work.

read this review

Annealing Made Perfect (AMP) Annealing Machine Review

By Bill Gravit, who was the founder of Sinclair. I own a few Sinclair products and they are all well made and well designed products. In other words I have faith in this guy's opinion because of my experience in past purchases of products that he has sold me and I have used.

The 6.5 guys over at Accurate Shooter did a review as well


6.5 Guys Review of AMP Induction Annealer

In researching the AMP last evening they use separate case holders to ensure the cartridges are in the optimum position each time so the the heat is concentrated just on the neck and says that a mm in position makes a huge difference in the process. From what little I know of magnetic fields that makes sense to a like me.

Correct me if I am wrong but from near as I can tell with the Annie unit you would have to design some sort of jig to ensure that the case was in the exact same position each time. Even at that you are still just guessing at where it is in the field since we can't see a magnetic field

I am not purchasing anything at the moment, however that new scope might not be happening as soon as I planned because of this thread. I am still waiting to see if I can get acceptable consistency from my home grown auto feed unit unit with a plumbers torch. If I notice a improvement I will be annealing after every firing and might even upgrade my unit with a regulated torch to give me improved temperature consistency from batch to batch.

Consistency in the chrono numbers is what I am in search of. to me the perfect anneal is one that gives me good case life and consistent numbers. Give me an electron microscope and I would look at a case one time and say "ain't that cool now" and that would be it.

Edit - just read the manuals for the Annie and the Amp. I can see where someone doing small scale production would prefer the water cooled Annie. Of course people doing small scale production would also be able to rig up some sort of jig for positioning and even automate it and the water cooling issue would not be a issue. Looks like you could rig up a water supply easily with a small aquarium or fountain pump and a plastic container easily enough if a sink was not available

However for someone like myself would be doing batches of 50 or 100 the water cooling would be a pain in the butt and I would prefer the FC coil which looks to offer less hassle, and easier loading at the expense of having a duty cycle like the AMP which would be a moot point for the average reloader doing lots of 100 or so . Still I think the AMP is the more advanced and well designed unit for a BR or long range shooter because you get absolute consistency with every round and every batch. The case you anneal today will be at the same place in the magnetic field as the case you annealed last week and receive the same amount of heat for the same length of time in the exact same spot on the case. Cant ask for much better than that in consistency

I also agree this is a great thread. I have learned a ton from it and that is why I keep coming here
 
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JH:

Sometimes this get to deep for me to follow completely, but keep on.

Would using an M die in your process assist you?

My brother got me one and I find its a lot more consistent and better feeling even though it takes a separate step (I am working on clearing bench space to set it up in its own press)

He has one for each cartridge , I just measured the depth set on the stem and adjust per caliber I am loading (all are in 30 caliber, just different ones)
 
Not looking to crap on Amp or any other maker, just consider the times recommended by Amp are off for US power grid users... One more vairable to consider.

I have no idea if the demonstration videos Amp produces are accurate or not, fouled brass doesn't anneal at the same rate as clean (Inside & outside) brass does, another vairable to consider.
There is a reason I steel pin clean before anything else goes on, I'm simply trying to remove as many vairables as possible.

As for 'Annie' (I have one), timing is built into the machine at 1/10 second intervals.
Power level transferred into the brass can be adjusted by the size of coil (larger coils are less efficient) or by the gap size in the ferrite, larger gaps are less efficient.

When you get your time approximate, and you want to fine tune, you simply start with a TIME slightly above what your end goal is, then open the gap until you get exactly what you are looking for.

The ferrite gap can also be shaped to apply more power at the shoulder bends, where the brass is thicker, and wider gap as it reaches the upper neck/mouth so you don't over heat the neck/mouth.

We went over that shaping in a couple of threads with another user that was overheating the upper neck/mouth before the shoulder reached proper target temp. It works pretty well, but shaping that ceramic ferrite can be a pain! I use a cheap diamond abrasive saw blade intended for ceramic tiles, it works pretty good on the ferrites.

When the mouth simply overheats, my solution was to simply stick the mouth further up, out from between the ferrite ends, then shape ferrite to be less efficient at the upper end,
This gave me a uniform 'Hardness' & grain structure all the way up the shoulder, neck & mouth.

If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed goes to the mountain!
Worked out better than my first idea, which was to use a wet swab in the case neck to slow heating.
Swabs don't like to stay fluffed up and in full contact with the case, and it's nearly impossible to keep a swab uniformly wet & cool.
By shaping the ferrite, it's consistent every single time, no extra crap required.

Getting a CONSISTENT BRASS product INTO the press produces a consistent brass product OUT of the press.
My computer geek friend is fond of saying 'Garbage In, Garbage Out',
Instead of beating my head against the wall trying to get differing brass hardness to resize consistently,
I started from scratch and put a uniform, consistent hardness brass into the press in the first place.

If you buy brand new brass, all the same lot,
Then shoot it through the same chamber (hopefully a tight chamber so it's not blown out),
Then keep track of how many reloads, and keep that brass together,
You usually have brass that shoots well since it's the same age, work hardened the same, run through the same chamber & dies, ect.
You are keeping consistency, even though the consistency is changing slightly and you are compensating for the changes....
This has been the common 'Wisdom' and accepted way to do things...

For those of us that nearly never buy new brass, shoot range pickup fired through who knows what chamber, reloaded an unknown number of times and sized on who knows what dies...
THAT'S A CRAP LOAD OF VAIRABLES!

CONSISTENT ANNEALING, to a very large degree, resets the clock on that brass and gives you a consistent starting point, even if you aren't worried about 'Perfect' annealing, or bench gun groups, you still get very good results by simply giving YOUR sizing dies a REASONABLY consistent brass product to work with...
With range pickup, every manufacturer WILL have a different brass formula, no way around that, annealing is letting you make the best of the situation no matter the formula of the brass.
Everyone that shoots range pickup knows this brand or that brand shoots better in their particular rifle, but once annealed & given a PROPER resize, let's face it, nothing shoots 'Better' than FREE BRASS, simply because it's FREE BRASS!
It's like sex, the worst you ever had was STILL SEX!

For the science minded,
It's about the bullet hold/release.
Frankly, after proper annealing, you would need a bench rifle to tell the difference.
If you can shoot a single hole that just gets a little darker & fuzzier with brand new, top of the line brass,
But your properly annealed range pickup or milbrass shoots one jagged hole, (10 rounds under a dime), then that's pretty darn good, and only a bench shooter would be able to tell the difference.

Most guys that shoot 'Minute Of Barn Door' groups wouldn't know the difference between Lapua & Russian steel case anyway...
It's the reloaders, that shoot from benches with mostly common rifles that will benefit the most.
A guy with a bench queen that is capable of one hole groups isn't going to compromise by using range pickup or common manufacturer brass,
The guy that empties magazines by clicking off rounds at nothing won't know the difference...
It's those of us that actually AIM a more or less common rifle that will see the biggest difference...
 
I've tried M dies, I don't see a huge difference simply because I champfer mouths fairly smoothly & precisely and don't need help getting the bullet started straight.
M dies are not needed with a smoothly & uniformly champfered neck & boat tailed bullets, almost exclusively what I load/shoot.

Some flat base bullet guys shooting really light bullets benefit simply because those small bullets need all the help they can get starting stright!
Really hard to get those little short suckers lined up with fingers only, a little taper to help out goes a long way!

I look at flaring the case mouth almost like crimping, it work hardens the case mouth at a different rate than the neck... Good way to get cracks started...

Not to beat a dead horse, but annealing helps crimped neck brass live MUCH longer by softening the mouth/crimp where most cracks get started.
It would also help with bell mouth or flared brass, not that flaring brass is NEARLY as hard on the brass as hard crimping is!
Either way, annealing helps take the stress/work Hardening out & the brass lives longer, if not shoots better.
 
I kind of missed the 'Jig' comment...
I do production, everything is in a Jig, so that question doesn't cross my mind...

If you leave an UNSECURED brass in a coil or ferrite, you will learn VERY QUICKLY what a strong magnetic field will do to supposedly 'Non-Magnetic' brass!
It will yank that brass around unmercifully!

Even in a feeder, you better have the coil/ferrite mounted, and find a way to limit the brass movement.
Very early on in these conversations I showed fiberglass wrap to keep the brass off the coils, and fiberglass sheets to keep the brass off the ferrites.

With Amp, I have to argue against using anything metallic very far down the case.
It might act as a heat sink for the sides of the case, but it's also distorting the magnetic field.
Even small change in arbor material alloy could throw the annealing off.
Aluminum with even slightly more iron would SERIOUSLY throw off the annealing, for example.
Since it's a one at a time unit, it's unlikely you would have more than one arbor, so that point is probably moot, but production it couldn't be allowed, or would have to be compensated for, and why I use electro-magnetic neutral (invisible) materials.

As for water cooling...
Depends on what machine type you are using.

Constantly ON annealers (using brass Time in the coil to control annealing of the brass) MUST be cooled!
Basic electro-magnetic here, as any material heats up, including the coils of the annealer, electrical resistance shoots up. (And I do mean SHOOTS UP!)

This would make the annealer coils inconsistent, the higher the electrical resistance, the less efficient the field.
Eventually, the coils would fail, probably melt.

Momentary operation, switching the coil ON/OFF to control exposure time, allows the coil to cool.
This becomes a question of 'Duty Cycle',
--- Does the coil cool sufficiently to perform consistently, or does it stay hot enough to retain unacceptable electrical resistance?

Those of us that have played with switched coils know you run a few before the annealing becomes consistent, it's been discussed before here...

Switching is most certainly the most efficient use of power on all but conveyor belt line runs, no question about it,
But you do have to run a few to get the coil temprature/resistance up to it's WORKING level before your production gets really consistent.

I just run a hand full of bent/cracked necks through before I start production, no problem after that.

A 'One At A Time' guy would want to allow the coil to cool completely before running the next round, just to be safe,
OR, start with some cracked/bent necks as he got a rhythm down, continuing right through with his good brass without stopping.

Consistency requires an even pace if you aren't going to let the coil come back to room temp between cycles.

Feeding machines (Girard & the like) take the guess work out of that, a case is going to drop at even intervals & that's going to allow the annealing coil cool at a set rate each time.

Same is true with gas annealing, the pressure in that gas bottle is dropping constantly, the front of your batch isn't going get the same energy/heat as the first of the batch...
The ONLY way to compensate for that vairable is a LARGER gas bottle, and a regulator.
I did extensive work with 1 pound gas bottles and screwed myself for a year before I figured out what was happening,
Switched to a 20 pound grill tank, and a good pressure regulator, and suddenly the first of the batch turned out like the tail of the batch.

Everytime I see a video on YouTube with a 1 pound gas bottle I have to roll my eyes and assume the guy making the video simply doesn't know any better, but in 100 cases or less, his Rockwell numbers are going to have a 20 point spread...
Not consistent in the slightest, a d that's ONLY IF he is using some sort of timing control or temp indicator... He has ZERO chance with 'Eyeball' or color change as a guide...
 
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Feeding machines (Girard & the like) take the guess work out of that, a case is going to drop at even intervals & that's going to allow the annealing coil cool at a set rate each time.

Same is true with gas annealing, the pressure in that gas bottle is dropping constantly, the front of your batch isn't going get the same energy/heat as the first of the batch...
The ONLY way to compensate for that vairable is a LARGER gas bottle, and a regulator.
Click to expand...

A couple of questions

how would you auto feed using the Annie unit ? The continuous cycle coil for the Annie is a 360 degree loop and the only way I could envision automatic feed would have the case being dropped in vertically from above then dropped through the bottom of the coil at the end of the cycle. The non continuous duty cold could be fed and removerd through the front.

I have to wonder why the Fluxeon designers did not mount the coil on a base that had a horizontal or vertically fed case holder system so that the case would be in the same spot each time. In its's present state the Annie is little better if not worse than a torch to get consistent placement. At least with a torch I can always put the tip of the blue cone in the same spot every time. And with a home made or purchased automatic unit the timing issue will be a breeze to set up.

Back to the gas heated

On a regulated torch the tank size will does not matter. The regulators job is to make sure that the pressure on the outlet side is constant at about 10.5 inches of water column regardless of the inlet pressure from the tank. Even with an unregulated torch for batches of 50 or 100 the tank volume and ambient temp the flame won't vary enough to matter because propane has an expansion ratio of 270 to 1. I want to use the same timing for batch to batch uniformity a regulated torch will be needed. Until I get one I will just check the timing using Templaq with each run since the liquid propane in the bottle has an expansion of 270 to 1. For a 15 or 20 minute job even using a unregulated torch the difference between the heat at the beginning and at the end is moot.
 
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Hounddog, the Annie has a fifty percent duty cycle, with an automatic feeder you could get close to 100 percent if you wanted to. I built a fifty percent trap door and feed by hand, I'm not pushing for mass production here. As to centering the case in the water cooled coil I drilled a piece of plexa glass to the dia. of a 300 WM and then beveled it so that the top will not catch a rim. The Annie will center the others for you, nothing neede, GREAT MACHINE.
 
I built a fifty percent trap door and feed by hand, I'm not pushing for mass production here. As to centering the case in the water cooled coil I drilled a piece of plexa glass to the dia. of a 300 WM and then beveled it so that the top will not catch a rim. The Annie will center the others for you, nothing neede, GREAT MACHINE.
the plexiglass sounds like what I would have done if I had bought one and would work great as long as you are just shooting one cartridge family. However supposing you are going from .308 to 30-06 or 6 Dasher you will have to recalibrate for case height , neck diameter, case diameter, and neck thickness.

I am not trying to be argumentative here or insult anyone but for the life of me I just don't see anything gained from the Annie. It appears to me that is nothing more than a expensive electric regulated torch that you can time precisely.

A 40 dollar regulated torch will give just as consistent of a heat source as the induction will, and I don't have to guess where the flame is heating my case, I can see it to adjust it and use the auto feed to get consistent times.

Within a month or two I will know whether I will buy an Amp or not. I have one set of 50 308 Lapua that are virgin brass, another 50 that have been shot once and SD and EDs recorded from the same lot. Then another 100 Lapua 260's that are on their 5th load and another 100 that are on their second load. Also a whole bunch of Hornady 204 Ruger brass that are in the teens now with no anneal. I will be doing chrony tests on various case lots and recording the results to see what if any improvements the in velocity consistency I get by annealing and whether I want to take it a step farther. The only test that matters here to me is consistent performance.
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OK,
Annie can use either a solid coil, tubing coil (for water cooling) or a Litz wire & ferrite.
The Girard & Annie my wife bought me work pretty well together with Litz wire/Ferrite arrangement.
The feeder drops the case into the GAP in the Ferrite, which does the same job as a torch only more precisely.

The Girard comes wired with a trip switch to activate the Annie timer when the case drops, in under 2 seconds your case is annealed and drops out the bottom.

I suggest a metal pan to drop into, the neck is still warm enough to somewhat melt a plastic bucket or pan.
The head can be handled with bare fingers.

Ferrite is an INTENSE focus point of the magnetic field, but the Ferrite can fairly easily be opened up for any neck/shoulder size, and it can be shaped to apply more or less of the magnetic field to a particular part of the case.

There is a speed adjustment on the feed machine, you can speed up production since the annealer only needs to 'See' the case for Two Seconds.
With gas on the same machine, your production is limited to exposure time to the flame.
With gas, when you get into fine annealing, I suggest you upgrade your timer to something much finer, the Girard time controller is pretty basic.
This upgrade is about $10 and it's all over the internet.
 
Houndog, the height adjustment was made to work for 223 thru 300 WM and can be tuned to the nearest 1/16". I control the action by using tempilaq and can see the heat line perfectly, being able to raise or lower the burn mark as I want. You were raising some questions that were easily solved, so I only attempted to ease your concern, not argue.
 
The feeder drops the case into the GAP in the Ferrite, which does the same job as a torch only more precisely.
Click to expand...

underline added by me

With a regulated torch the heat output would be the same on a August day with a full tank of propane or a January day with a nearly empty tank. Ambient temperature and tank pressure become moot. With a home made or commercial feed unit the timing would be exactly the same every time. How would a Annie be more precise than that ?

If I were going to drop 1000 plus into a Annie, a Giraud case feeder and the adapter kit needed to attach the two I will just buy a AMP which does the same thing more precisely and with no need of recalibrating every time I change cases.
 
Dawg, that's entirely up to you what you buy.
Don't know why the confrontation, but it's up to you what you get & how you use it.

And while on the subject, Annie & Girard would give you a production system that fairly consistent...
Amp is a single case unit with no provision for a production option.
Annie & Girard are still $500 USD cheaper than the advertised price of the AMP,

When Annie & Amp are compared as single case units, the Amp is $1,000 USD more expensive.

Buy what you want, that's entirely up to you, it's not my money and my objectives could very well be different than yours.

----

I just point out vairables, either you are concerned with them or you aren't, again, up to you.
Doesn't matter if it's 'Torch 'em & Shoot 'em, or OCD as all get out like I am, whatever works for you.
I got an Girard & Annie for free, just dropped in my lap or I probably would be building the induction units.

I work with Annie Girard because they are commonly available and kind of fun to play with, produce repeatable results so someone else that doesn't want to section, polish, micrograph, Rockwell test, ect can get as close to the line as possible.
This is my idea of a hobby, and/or fun, YOUR mileage may vary...

I found an induction annealer produced more consistent results simply because it removes vairables, the biggest of which is conduction heating, heating the outside of the case and waiting for said heat to penetrate into the case.
Induction heats from within, much like a microwave, so no issues with overheating the outside trying to get the inside hot enough...

For me it's about the END OBJECTIVE, Someone else might have different objectives, like just case longevity..

The OBJECTIVE isn't HOW you heat the case in the first place,
The OBJECTIVE isn't how HARD the case is when you are done.
The OBJECTIVE isn't even about how hot the case gets or doesn't get...

The OBJECTIVE is to have as consistent a hold on the bullet as possible from ALL CASES.

Doesn't matter if you salt bath dip the cases, lead dip the cases, flame the cases, induction annealing the cases,
Doesn't matter how you reach the OBJECTIVE, BUT THAT YOU REACH THE OBJECTIVE.

Neck sizing determines how MUCH HOLD you get, all else being equal, so I don't even worry about what the 'Average' hold is, I just want the highest & lowest numbers to have the closest possible spread.

When Lapua can produce cases with 1-1/2 to 2 pound spreads, that's pretty darn CONSISTENT!
When I can get second rate milbrass to a spread of 5 pounds or less, that's pretty good...
I don't know the secret to sub-2 pound spreads, but I'm not going to stop looking anytime soon...
 
Dawg, that's entirely up to you what you buy.
Don't know why the confrontation, but it's up to you what you get & how you use it.

And while on the subject, Annie & Girard would give you a production system that fairly consistent...
Amp is a single case unit with no provision for a production option.
Annie & Girard are still $500 USD cheaper than the advertised price of the AMP,

When Annie & Amp are compared as single case units, the Amp is $1,000 USD more expensive.

Buy what you want, that's entirely up to you, it's not my money and my objectives could very well be different than yours.
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I am just discussing the thread subject and still waiting for someone to explain to me why how Annie provides any more precision than a regulated flame on a automated unit. I think I can achieve my objective for a fraction of the cost of a Annie + case feeder or a AMP.

My objective is simple. To anneal 50 to 100 cases a week and be assured that the first case I annealed in a batch will be the same as the 50th. For 1100 that the Amp would be an expansive but perfect solution. Changing cases from .260 to .308 to .204 would simply be a matter of switching case holders and dialing in the proper program. No readjustments of case position or guessing at time while calibrating wit Templaq needed

At Grafs an Amp is $1099 and case holders are $20 each. For my purposes it would cost me $1139 plus 7.95 for shipping to set up for my current 3 cartridges I load for. What I get is a unit that requires basically no though or calibration. I change case holders and dial in the correct setting from the database then just swap cases in and out for 10 or 15 minutes or so with the assurance that each case is perfectly positioned and perfectly timed

In comparison the basic Giraud case feed unit is $470 and case feeder wheels are $20 each. To convert to use the Annie it would cost another $125 at time of purchase or another $250 to convert one that I already owned. A basic Annie costs $470 so that puts me up to about 1100 including a second case feeding wheel.

For that 1100 I still have to recalibrate the time and the case position when I change from one cartridge to the next same as if I was using a regulated or even unregulated propane heat source.

Not trying to insult anyone or anything here just pointing out the facts. BTW my wife is mad at you Jeephammer for getting me started on this. Now each night she has to listen to me babble about neck spring back SD's and ED's. All in all though I owe you a thanks for getting me to thinking about this, it might help me get to that next level. Now if you can suggest an alternative to the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball for gauging wind out to 1000 I will be eternally grateful

But still if I can get my groups down from consistent sub .5 MOA with occasional .3's and .2 groups to consistent .3's with the occasional .2 it will be worth it to me to automate the process. If I did not have a shop or knowledge to build my own case feeder I would gladly spend 470 on the Giraud case feed unit and just use a regulated propane heat source. The case feed looks to be well designed and at a price of $470 and includes regulated propane torch. I can't see any reason to drop another $600 - $700 to add or retrofit to a Annie just to be able to say I did it with induction

Now if I were doing large runs of hundreds and thousands of cases a week the Annie coupled with the Giraud feed unit would be an option so I can see and understand where you are coming from. Still you would be limited because you would be manually reloading cases every 5 to 10 minutes for large runs and that it looks like the non water cooled coil has to be used with the auto case feeder
 
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