Annealing brass
- Thread starter towman32
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JeepHammer
Moderator
Rockwell machine is half the equation, a high powered microscope compairator with scaleable graduations,
Meaning it's highly magnified so you can really SEE the dimple the calibrated Rockwell machine left behind,
And as you 'Zoom In' or 'Zoom Out' the grid scale zooms with the image, so you can keep track of measurements is required to do the job correctly.
With chemical processing and alternate light sources you can often quite plainly see the grain structure of the brass, see the compression stress lines, ect.
And that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about,
No one listens to the guys with the equipment to do the ACTUAL testing & emperic evidence collection,
They are all too busy posting/reading links to "Beaver Bob's" home brew 'Annealing' article which is always nothing more than some guy with a line of crap, a blow torch and a bowl of water.
Meaning it's highly magnified so you can really SEE the dimple the calibrated Rockwell machine left behind,
And as you 'Zoom In' or 'Zoom Out' the grid scale zooms with the image, so you can keep track of measurements is required to do the job correctly.
With chemical processing and alternate light sources you can often quite plainly see the grain structure of the brass, see the compression stress lines, ect.
And that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about,
No one listens to the guys with the equipment to do the ACTUAL testing & emperic evidence collection,
They are all too busy posting/reading links to "Beaver Bob's" home brew 'Annealing' article which is always nothing more than some guy with a line of crap, a blow torch and a bowl of water.
I agree that your flame and how much heat it produces is important . How ever I disagree you can't effectively use a propane torch . I've ran test that showed me I could effectively reduce the flame and heat of my propane torch to heat the case quite effectively .
Here's a few pics of my tests showing the different flames heating the case to the exact same temp according to applying 750* inside the neck .
What I started with
MAPP gas
Hot propane torch
Propane turned down
Sorry I no longer have the picture showing the anneal marks each flame gave but can say the less heat the flame produced the less the anneal marks were visible . This test alone indicated to me anneal marks mean nothing as far as if you hit any specific temperature .
Although I don't completely disagree with that . I think it's important to point out the slower you heat the neck and shoulder . The farther that heat transfers down the case body . This is the very reason it's recommended to use a much hotter flame then lets say a candle or the like . A very low flame will not heat the neck and shoulder fast enough resulting in the entire case heating to just about the same temperature .
Although I never did test with an oven or candle flame I did run test seeing if I could over heat the base/head of the case using a propane torch applied to the neck and shoulder . My test indicated it was almost impossible to over heat the head of the case by using a propane torch correctly . Now it's important I add that when I say impossible I mean that in so much as if you where to heat the case up to the point the head reached 450* when applying the heat only to the neck and shoulder . The neck and shoulder would have reached temperatures in excess of 950* . My specific test showed the neck and parts of the shoulder were glowing red in a brightly lit room for several seconds before the head reached 450* . Resulting in a completely unusable case anyways . That's what I mean by impossible to heat the head to much using a propane torch . If you were to do so the neck and shoulder would have been ruined well before the head got to hot .
This is a pic of those cases after the test using both 308 & 223 cases
To add to the thought of only being able to know if your annealing has worked or was effective by using some sort of high priced machine . There has to be something said for noticing very inconsistent bullet seating pressures just by the feel of the press when seating bullets . Then after annealing those same cases all bullets seat what appears to be at the same pressure with no real inconsistent feel from round to round . That must indicate something went right or at least relieved most of the stress resulting in each bullet feeling the same when seated .
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The problem is the human nervous system is wired in a way that we can't really tell the difference between pressure changes that are much under 10% of the whole. You can prove this to yourself with a scale. Push down with 10 lbs force and you can see the jitter is almost a pound and intentionally increasing your push by a pound doesn't feel significantly different. Same happens with 10 ounces increased by 1 ounce on a smaller scale. So I just don't know if the resolution of pressure feel is fine enough to really tell what you need. Jim Ristow at RSI had some users of his Load Force tool reporting they could see a difference in as little of a pound of seating force out of 60 on the target. I'm not sure how scientific their method of testing this was, but it's a possibility, anyway. Needs more research and experimenting.
I'll admit I don't know much about the physics of that but if that were true . Can I conclude for at least when I annealed these specific WCC-06 cases . That before annealing there was a bullet seat force swing of over 10% with some cases because there was a noticeable difference with some cases ? After annealing they all were under a 10% swing because I could no longer notice a difference ? Which should in theory make the annealed cases have a more consistent bullet hold then those same cases when they were not annealed ?
Unclenick, I get my procedure from Norma booklets . They ought to know as they have also reloaded ammo. Their system is quick and easy great for the typical reloader .
Yes I could get into the science of the whole thing but I'd rather not complicate things . It's of course a time/temperature thing with a good bit of variables .Most don't have a lab to help them !
Yes I could get into the science of the whole thing but I'd rather not complicate things . It's of course a time/temperature thing with a good bit of variables .Most don't have a lab to help them !
Hardening is not the issue, softening (and in the wrong place) is.
Actually in two out of the three cases (pun intended) you do no harm, you just nave not done good (too much heat and too soft forever, too little heat and you achieve little if anything)
that said, the first two are the prevalent ones (as proven by failure to have blow ups reported frequently - and yes I am making a judgment call here)
Where the danger lies is heating the case up down to the base and softening it and then the kaboom. Shorter cases and exuberant heat.
Good part is most over torch and overheat the neck and maybe the shoulder and the case cools fast enough the lower body is not impacted (my assumption again)
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Wildernesshunter
New member
This morning I did a Google search on the life expectancy of brass in reloads. It caused me to stumble upon Annealing.... I have never heard of it and my Dad that taught me reloading.....never talked about it.
What caught my eye was a 1,000 yard marksman that anneals every shoot or two and gets as many as 40+ reloads out of his brass.....in a high powered magnum rifle.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
If annealing would allow me to reload, even 10 times, I would do it religiously. Up until now....I thought my brass would last 3 maybe 4 reloads.
"I use a 1/2 deep socket chucked it a drill, with a zip tie around the trigger to keep it going at a slow, steady pace."
Good minds think alike.....
What caught my eye was a 1,000 yard marksman that anneals every shoot or two and gets as many as 40+ reloads out of his brass.....in a high powered magnum rifle.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
If annealing would allow me to reload, even 10 times, I would do it religiously. Up until now....I thought my brass would last 3 maybe 4 reloads.
"I use a 1/2 deep socket chucked it a drill, with a zip tie around the trigger to keep it going at a slow, steady pace."
Good minds think alike.....
Same here, reloaded for hunting and pistol for a long time.
No one talked about minimum should setback, either RCBS and the die makes still say down to the shell holder and a 1/8 or better turn.
A lot of this is turned my reloading upside down from what I thought was a nice easy process to having to pay attention to the other aspects
What it amounts to as Jeephammer put it, the electric inductive are the consistent way to go for a prolife re-loader.
Metal god has his down to a good science, but he has put a great deal of effort into it and time consuming and he pays meticulous attention to detail and has experiment a great deal to get there.
Worst case at this point I would buy the Annie. As I can use my brothers and do it every 5 cycles and plenty of backup cases, that is the way I am going.
No one talked about minimum should setback, either RCBS and the die makes still say down to the shell holder and a 1/8 or better turn.
A lot of this is turned my reloading upside down from what I thought was a nice easy process to having to pay attention to the other aspects
What it amounts to as Jeephammer put it, the electric inductive are the consistent way to go for a prolife re-loader.
Metal god has his down to a good science, but he has put a great deal of effort into it and time consuming and he pays meticulous attention to detail and has experiment a great deal to get there.
Worst case at this point I would buy the Annie. As I can use my brothers and do it every 5 cycles and plenty of backup cases, that is the way I am going.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Precise & Consistant aren't mutually inclusive.
You CAN anneal fairly reliably without requiring expensive & complicated equipment & training.
ANY softening & Normalization of the case material will increase case life,
Annealing normalizes the christaline structure of the case material, minimizing stress lines (that eventually fracture).
So your case hits 73 RC instead of 63 RC, big deal, its soft enough for it's intended purpose and the cases are back to being consistant at 73 RC.
TIMING, above all else, no matter the heating source, is going to give consistantcy.
Saying "Thousand One, Thousand Two..." Isn't going to cut it.
You need a $10 sports watch with stop watch function, up to a digital timer that drops the cases out of the heat PRECISELY timed,
Adjust your time based on results, DO NOT OVER HEAT!
The fastest, most consistant results I got with a 'Home Made' annealer (keep in mind I own a full machine shop, so my version of 'Home Made' is different than most people),
This was NOT energy effective...
Electrical resistance, hot metal case gauge with a hot rod that inserted into the case.
Timer activated when the case was dropped into the CONSTANTLY hot unit,
Timer popped the case out via electrical solenoid when timer times out.
Adjustable digital timers are $5 on eBay, electric stove heating coils are $15 at Walmart, solenoids are dirt cheap, one on the side of every Chrysler & GM starter motor strong enough to throw a hot brass across the room...
Cost depends entirely on your ability to understand the process, and build something that will do the job.
You CAN anneal fairly reliably without requiring expensive & complicated equipment & training.
ANY softening & Normalization of the case material will increase case life,
Annealing normalizes the christaline structure of the case material, minimizing stress lines (that eventually fracture).
So your case hits 73 RC instead of 63 RC, big deal, its soft enough for it's intended purpose and the cases are back to being consistant at 73 RC.
TIMING, above all else, no matter the heating source, is going to give consistantcy.
Saying "Thousand One, Thousand Two..." Isn't going to cut it.
You need a $10 sports watch with stop watch function, up to a digital timer that drops the cases out of the heat PRECISELY timed,
Adjust your time based on results, DO NOT OVER HEAT!
The fastest, most consistant results I got with a 'Home Made' annealer (keep in mind I own a full machine shop, so my version of 'Home Made' is different than most people),
This was NOT energy effective...
Electrical resistance, hot metal case gauge with a hot rod that inserted into the case.
Timer activated when the case was dropped into the CONSTANTLY hot unit,
Timer popped the case out via electrical solenoid when timer times out.
Adjustable digital timers are $5 on eBay, electric stove heating coils are $15 at Walmart, solenoids are dirt cheap, one on the side of every Chrysler & GM starter motor strong enough to throw a hot brass across the room...
Cost depends entirely on your ability to understand the process, and build something that will do the job.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Without question, the SAFEST way to anneal is electrical (magnetic) Induction,
Depending on the size of the unit, its also the fastest way to anneal, just 2 to 5 seconds a case. Smaller units take more time, same way smaller heat sources take more time.
Electrical Indiction is also VERY accurate without leaving a heat effect stress line in the material, like a heated case gauge can.
Electrical Induction will be VERY slow to catch on outside the larger manufacturers, simply because they aren't advertising HOW they get so precisely annealed cases,
And because most common folks thinks electrical energy is 'FM' (Freaking Magic),
And have no clue how to wire up premade components, and no idea how to build from scratch...
If they can't SEE it work, like a flame hitting the case, they think it's 'FM',
The reason so many people burn themselves on electric stoves & soldering irons, if its not glowing read hot, they don't connect the dots...
Depending on the size of the unit, its also the fastest way to anneal, just 2 to 5 seconds a case. Smaller units take more time, same way smaller heat sources take more time.
Electrical Indiction is also VERY accurate without leaving a heat effect stress line in the material, like a heated case gauge can.
Electrical Induction will be VERY slow to catch on outside the larger manufacturers, simply because they aren't advertising HOW they get so precisely annealed cases,
And because most common folks thinks electrical energy is 'FM' (Freaking Magic),
And have no clue how to wire up premade components, and no idea how to build from scratch...
If they can't SEE it work, like a flame hitting the case, they think it's 'FM',
The reason so many people burn themselves on electric stoves & soldering irons, if its not glowing read hot, they don't connect the dots...
JeepHammer
Moderator
The one thing I NEVER see posted about annealing is a spotlessly clean case, especially inside the neck.
Any crud, carbon, trace metals can and will find their way into the brass,
Same way carbon finds its way into steel when heated.
You are heating, expanding the distance between molecules, and you are expanding large enough for trace metals, carbon & crud to enter.
The ONLY way to keep that crap out is for the crap NOT to be there in the first place.
If you are going to anneal anywhere near properly, find a way to clean the INSIDE of the case, as well as the outside of the case.
Now, welders can confirm this,
You CAN NOT use a common carbon steel brush, or abrasives containing carbon on stainless steel, or it WILL rust/corrode.
The same is true with brass/gas welding.
Oxygen/air containing carbon can't be allowed to enter many kinds of heating treating/welding operations, or the metals will be contaminated on a molecular level.
Cartridge brass isn't quite that sensitive, but you will want to take precautions like clean brass for annealing to a 'Normalization' temperature.
While doing a lot of research on annealing processes, I found significant antimony & carbon contamination in the used brass vs new brass...
If the brass was THROUGHLY cleaned, the contamination penetration into the brass was almost nothing.
This told me clean cases don't absorb contaminants during the firing process, the case didn't stay hot enough, long enough to absorb firing contaminants,
But annealing a dirty case reached temperatures high enough for long enough to contaminate the brass.
Guys reloading range ammo won't care, they will dry media tumble, leave the inside of the case neck dirty, and never have consistent neck tension anyway since most crimp and/or don't check for consistent neck diameter anyway.
I see guys pre porting to be loading 'Accuracy' loads, when they post pictures the inside of the case neck is FILTHY.
Absolutely NO WAY to get consistent neck tension or bullet release with a filthy neck... So there 'Accuracy' has to be coming from somewhere else...
Also, filthy necks have ZERO chance of resizing correctly, and dragging a sizing ball through that crud just has got to be scratching the crap out of the brass & sizer ball...
I used brushes for years, scrubbing cases by hand before sizing/annealing,
Since I switched to stainless pin media, no more hand scrubbing! YEAH!
I found my sizing die & neck ball to be much cleaner when done also, another big plus since I didn't have to disassemble the sizing die and scrub all the parts by hand, now I can clean it with spray can solvent and be done with it.
Any crud, carbon, trace metals can and will find their way into the brass,
Same way carbon finds its way into steel when heated.
You are heating, expanding the distance between molecules, and you are expanding large enough for trace metals, carbon & crud to enter.
The ONLY way to keep that crap out is for the crap NOT to be there in the first place.
If you are going to anneal anywhere near properly, find a way to clean the INSIDE of the case, as well as the outside of the case.
Now, welders can confirm this,
You CAN NOT use a common carbon steel brush, or abrasives containing carbon on stainless steel, or it WILL rust/corrode.
The same is true with brass/gas welding.
Oxygen/air containing carbon can't be allowed to enter many kinds of heating treating/welding operations, or the metals will be contaminated on a molecular level.
Cartridge brass isn't quite that sensitive, but you will want to take precautions like clean brass for annealing to a 'Normalization' temperature.
While doing a lot of research on annealing processes, I found significant antimony & carbon contamination in the used brass vs new brass...
If the brass was THROUGHLY cleaned, the contamination penetration into the brass was almost nothing.
This told me clean cases don't absorb contaminants during the firing process, the case didn't stay hot enough, long enough to absorb firing contaminants,
But annealing a dirty case reached temperatures high enough for long enough to contaminate the brass.
Guys reloading range ammo won't care, they will dry media tumble, leave the inside of the case neck dirty, and never have consistent neck tension anyway since most crimp and/or don't check for consistent neck diameter anyway.
I see guys pre porting to be loading 'Accuracy' loads, when they post pictures the inside of the case neck is FILTHY.
Absolutely NO WAY to get consistent neck tension or bullet release with a filthy neck... So there 'Accuracy' has to be coming from somewhere else...
Also, filthy necks have ZERO chance of resizing correctly, and dragging a sizing ball through that crud just has got to be scratching the crap out of the brass & sizer ball...
I used brushes for years, scrubbing cases by hand before sizing/annealing,
Since I switched to stainless pin media, no more hand scrubbing! YEAH!
I found my sizing die & neck ball to be much cleaner when done also, another big plus since I didn't have to disassemble the sizing die and scrub all the parts by hand, now I can clean it with spray can solvent and be done with it.
JeepHammer
Moderator
The other half of this equation is not mentioned, because for what ever reason, people just don't think about it...
How about NOT overworking the brass in the first place?
Most common sizing dies compress the neck way more than they actually need to.
One size fits nothing when you are talking 0.002" neck tension.
Having that neck compressed down 0.010", then expanding it open 0.008" is in-nessaraly work hardening the neck.
Check your compression, no expander ball, and decide how much neck tension you want, usually around 0.002" or 0.003" or there abouts...
Punching that case neck in 0.010" or 0.012" and expanding it back out is totally UN-nessaraly work hardening.
While honing out the neck on common steel dies is cheap & easy and makes the die fit the brass you commonly use.
I have to admit, I haven't worked with common dies in several years since I got an EDM, I just make my own dies, they might have improved.
Worth checking since all you have to do is size 10 brass without the expander ball and average what you are seeing.
How about NOT overworking the brass in the first place?
Most common sizing dies compress the neck way more than they actually need to.
One size fits nothing when you are talking 0.002" neck tension.
Having that neck compressed down 0.010", then expanding it open 0.008" is in-nessaraly work hardening the neck.
Check your compression, no expander ball, and decide how much neck tension you want, usually around 0.002" or 0.003" or there abouts...
Punching that case neck in 0.010" or 0.012" and expanding it back out is totally UN-nessaraly work hardening.
While honing out the neck on common steel dies is cheap & easy and makes the die fit the brass you commonly use.
I have to admit, I haven't worked with common dies in several years since I got an EDM, I just make my own dies, they might have improved.
Worth checking since all you have to do is size 10 brass without the expander ball and average what you are seeing.
[Quote from mete]
In the big inning I sat down and thought about annealing. I decided there had to be rules and there had to be factors. I sorted through some material and information available to all reloaders and then I made a tool that was based on rules and factors.
And then came one of those ‘and then’ moments: I became a member of one of the most dysfunctional forum ever created, and then it was closed and all of the archives were deleted. When I read a thread about annealing on forums today I am reminded of that dysfunctional forum. For the most part it is ‘cut and paste’ and some of the names remain the same.
On the old forum I was told the pan of water was not necessary and I was told it did nothing. I believe the member of that forum that suggested using the pan of water learned from an old man that made anvils.
F. Guffey
In the big inning I sat down and thought about annealing. I decided there had to be rules and there had to be factors. I sorted through some material and information available to all reloaders and then I made a tool that was based on rules and factors.
And then came one of those ‘and then’ moments: I became a member of one of the most dysfunctional forum ever created, and then it was closed and all of the archives were deleted. When I read a thread about annealing on forums today I am reminded of that dysfunctional forum. For the most part it is ‘cut and paste’ and some of the names remain the same.
On the old forum I was told the pan of water was not necessary and I was told it did nothing. I believe the member of that forum that suggested using the pan of water learned from an old man that made anvils.
F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
With about any method I've seen, the case bottom never gets hot enough to worry about. Never gets more than about 150*F since most ways up until now used a socket, pliers, or some other hunk of metal that worked like a heat sink.
The thin neck/shoulder cools very quickly without cooling it in water...
I actually saw a video on YouTube where an idiot tried to anneal bare fingered, with fingers on the sides of the case!
Never showed that hand again in the rest of the video...
The thin neck/shoulder cools very quickly without cooling it in water...
I actually saw a video on YouTube where an idiot tried to anneal bare fingered, with fingers on the sides of the case!
Never showed that hand again in the rest of the video...
I think many of us think about it as well as have the tools to over come it . It's not being talked about here because that"s not really what the tread is about
How ever it is a good point in the grand scheme of things . Agreed , and is why I use Redding bushing dies along with competition shell holders in my most used calibers . I don't use bushing dies when sizing 30-30 , 270 or 250-3000 ( 250 Savage ) . I just don't shoot those much so brass life is not important nor is uber consistency .
I'm sure at some point I'll have a custom die made for a rifle but as of now I don't own any rifles that are worthy of such attention to detail .
As for annealing , truth be told . I don't anneal very often . Not because I don't value the process or benefit but because I just have A LOT of brass in 250 , 500 and 1000 count lots . It takes me a long time to fire 500 cases 4 or 5 times and even when I do . I just put those aside for annealing and move to another lot of brass . I did just anneal a 200+ct lot of R.P. brass . Only because I threw once fired , 3 times fired and 5 times fired cases all together to make one large lot . I felt it would be best just to anneal them all to bring them all back to a relatively consistent hardness .
JeepHammer
Moderator
I had the same issue, the time factor...
A good time to know a little about gears & WIRES.
Started with flame about 25 years ago, built a half dozen machines so I didn't have to do it by hand,
Progressed through electrical resistance on to electrical induction.
Now 6 stations drop a case about every 6 seconds.
One a second average isn't too bad a production rate.
The biggest issue I have is case feeders, each station has to have its own case feeder, and they are hungry when trying to keep up with all 6...
A good time to know a little about gears & WIRES.
Started with flame about 25 years ago, built a half dozen machines so I didn't have to do it by hand,
Progressed through electrical resistance on to electrical induction.
Now 6 stations drop a case about every 6 seconds.
One a second average isn't too bad a production rate.
The biggest issue I have is case feeders, each station has to have its own case feeder, and they are hungry when trying to keep up with all 6...
Wildernesshunter
New member
Did my first batch......
120 rounds of 7.62x39 brass. Clamped the drill gun in the vise, put on a 7/16 deep socket.....a fresh hand-sized bottle of propane and here we go..... Probably 100 rpm's.
Wish I would have had someone really expert in the shop with me to coach....but just did my best. The big unknown was how hot to get the shell. In the light I had in the shop, I just got them barely beginning to get a low glow.
Once hot, with a glove, I pulled them out of the socket and I dropped them in warm water.
Not sure I will ever know if this does any good or is worth the investment in time....but annealing is another fun part of the hobby.
120 rounds of 7.62x39 brass. Clamped the drill gun in the vise, put on a 7/16 deep socket.....a fresh hand-sized bottle of propane and here we go..... Probably 100 rpm's.
Wish I would have had someone really expert in the shop with me to coach....but just did my best. The big unknown was how hot to get the shell. In the light I had in the shop, I just got them barely beginning to get a low glow.
Once hot, with a glove, I pulled them out of the socket and I dropped them in warm water.
Not sure I will ever know if this does any good or is worth the investment in time....but annealing is another fun part of the hobby.