Annealing brass
- Thread starter towman32
- Start date
Read this:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/annealing.html
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/annealing.html
Get some 750 F tempilaq. Paint a small stripe on the inside of the case neck, let it dry.
I use a 1/2 deep socket chucked it a drill, with a zip tie around the trigger to keep it going at a slow, steady pace. I paint 3 cases like how I said earlier. Put a case in the socket, turn the drill on put it at the tip of the blue(hottest point) of a propane torch, and count till the tempilaq on the inside of the case mouth melts. Do that for 3 and I got a good idea of the pace I need
Personally I'd go with propane, because, I believe it's cheaper(been a while since I've looked into Oxy acetaline refills) and, with a smaller flame is cooler. You don't want to over heat the brass and I feel oxy acetaline would have a better chance of over heating the brass.
You probably get more product with an oxygen or acetaline fill up though. If you got a small enough heating tip you could try it. If I had tanks I'd give it a try. Been too long since I put my hood on last!
I use a 1/2 deep socket chucked it a drill, with a zip tie around the trigger to keep it going at a slow, steady pace. I paint 3 cases like how I said earlier. Put a case in the socket, turn the drill on put it at the tip of the blue(hottest point) of a propane torch, and count till the tempilaq on the inside of the case mouth melts. Do that for 3 and I got a good idea of the pace I need
Personally I'd go with propane, because, I believe it's cheaper(been a while since I've looked into Oxy acetaline refills) and, with a smaller flame is cooler. You don't want to over heat the brass and I feel oxy acetaline would have a better chance of over heating the brass.
You probably get more product with an oxygen or acetaline fill up though. If you got a small enough heating tip you could try it. If I had tanks I'd give it a try. Been too long since I put my hood on last!
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I'll first ask why do you want to anneal ?
1) extend case life - just about any method you read about will work
2) produce the most consistent loads with the exact same bullet hold from cartridge to cartridge ? - get a annealing machine .
The neck and shoulder need to be heated to 750* for just split second . A temp indicator of 750 inside the neck works well but I found it very hard to remove after . For that reason I use 450* on the outside just below the shoulder making sure the temp indicator never comes in direct contact with the flame .
I have lots I can say on this issue but that IMO is about all you need
1) extend case life - just about any method you read about will work
2) produce the most consistent loads with the exact same bullet hold from cartridge to cartridge ? - get a annealing machine .
The neck and shoulder need to be heated to 750* for just split second . A temp indicator of 750 inside the neck works well but I found it very hard to remove after . For that reason I use 450* on the outside just below the shoulder making sure the temp indicator never comes in direct contact with the flame .
I have lots I can say on this issue but that IMO is about all you need
solano2482
Inactive
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
this is probably the best article I have read on this subject. I am also new to annealing. I annealed one set of 50 pieces of Lapua Brass after the 5th reload. I have fired them 3 times after that. I have not had the need to throw any of them out due to spilt necks or case head separation. I would heat them for about 7 seconds in a dark room until there was a very feint red glow. I have read that competiton reloaders were able to get over 20 reloads out of there brass with annealing. My goal is ultimate brass life.
I also neck size mostly, and dont shoot the highest possible charge. When working up a load, I have found that I get the best groups somewhere in between the minimum charge, and the max charge. This may also contribute to long case life.
this is probably the best article I have read on this subject. I am also new to annealing. I annealed one set of 50 pieces of Lapua Brass after the 5th reload. I have fired them 3 times after that. I have not had the need to throw any of them out due to spilt necks or case head separation. I would heat them for about 7 seconds in a dark room until there was a very feint red glow. I have read that competiton reloaders were able to get over 20 reloads out of there brass with annealing. My goal is ultimate brass life.
I also neck size mostly, and dont shoot the highest possible charge. When working up a load, I have found that I get the best groups somewhere in between the minimum charge, and the max charge. This may also contribute to long case life.
"...and temperature..." There is a fixed temperature at which brass anneals. Approximately 650-700 degrees Fahrenheit. That you probable don't have and really don't need the tools to measure. Using an inexpensive propane torch(no oxy/acetylene torches, ever. Far too hot.) and a pan of water works as well as any high priced machine.
You can see the brass change colour. That's annealed. Tip it over and it's done.
Unless you want to spend $300ish on a machine instead of $20ish for the propane torch kit.
Read this too.
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
You can see the brass change colour. That's annealed. Tip it over and it's done.
Unless you want to spend $300ish on a machine instead of $20ish for the propane torch kit.
Read this too.
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
.
The reality is that you can fool yourself.
In this case, red glow is overheated, but as long as it does not move up the case you are ok, its just too soft for consistent tension, accuracy not as good.
And that is what is being missed and Metal Gods point, you DO NOT WANT IT GOING DOWN THE CASE. That changes the case down below and kaboomy.
If you don't heat enough worst case is you do little if any good and that only hurts brass life.
If you really want to do it right get the Annie anealer (not cheap)
Someone like Metal God that crosses the i and dots the T I believe can achieve correct, but that takes a major amount of attention.
Certainly not me.
The reality is that you can fool yourself.
In this case, red glow is overheated, but as long as it does not move up the case you are ok, its just too soft for consistent tension, accuracy not as good.
And that is what is being missed and Metal Gods point, you DO NOT WANT IT GOING DOWN THE CASE. That changes the case down below and kaboomy.
If you don't heat enough worst case is you do little if any good and that only hurts brass life.
If you really want to do it right get the Annie anealer (not cheap)
Someone like Metal God that crosses the i and dots the T I believe can achieve correct, but that takes a major amount of attention.
Certainly not me.
I'm no expert metalurgist but based on a few years experience reloading, I think I can safely say that not all makes of brass are the same. I lose more cases to neck splitting with Federal brass by far. I recently annealed some with two propane torches and Templac. Eight seconds does it and I don't drop them in water. As long as the base doesn't reach 500 they'll be fine and they air cool quick enough to avoid the whole water thing. This process gave me good results, no case losses so far, and I found some good grouping loads using that brass.
BTW I'm talking about rifle cases only, I've never annealed brass for hand guns.
BTW I'm talking about rifle cases only, I've never annealed brass for hand guns.
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T. O' Heir:
Did you read the Bison link? No tip over needed.
Now I think people do that sort of thing to keep the temp down, but the Tip over if in water already is a quench thing.
Impossible for the heat to travel below the water surface if that's a problem.
And as stated, its all pretty dicy unless you do a quick heat to the right temperature it can easily be under or over.
Neither is an safety issue unless over goes down the case.
Did you read the Bison link? No tip over needed.
Now I think people do that sort of thing to keep the temp down, but the Tip over if in water already is a quench thing.
Impossible for the heat to travel below the water surface if that's a problem.
And as stated, its all pretty dicy unless you do a quick heat to the right temperature it can easily be under or over.
Neither is an safety issue unless over goes down the case.
mete said:
That's close to the temperature range (482-572°F) the chart I have gives for stress-relieving (partial annealing) 70:30 brass. However, my chart is for one hour of exposure to that temperature. I've always assumed the 650-750°F numbers came from trying to compensate for the fact the exposure was just a few seconds, but then the brass is very thin and doesn't need soak time, so I don't actually know. Can you offer some insight into the annealing time verse temperature relationship?
Stats Shooter
New member
Just my 2 Cents,
But it seems that unless you can ensure that you are annealing correctly, it isn't worth trying. One needs to acquire proper annealing equipment because if you change case hardness non-uniformly you do more harm than good. I think it is worth it if you are shooting 1: a rare cartridge with hard to replace brass like .300 HH mag or some wildcat round; or 2: an expensive case like .338 LM or .50 BMG then go for it.
I however would just be afraid I wouldn't uniformly harden my cases and thus hurt accuracy.
But it seems that unless you can ensure that you are annealing correctly, it isn't worth trying. One needs to acquire proper annealing equipment because if you change case hardness non-uniformly you do more harm than good. I think it is worth it if you are shooting 1: a rare cartridge with hard to replace brass like .300 HH mag or some wildcat round; or 2: an expensive case like .338 LM or .50 BMG then go for it.
I however would just be afraid I wouldn't uniformly harden my cases and thus hurt accuracy.
"Uniformly harden?"
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/blind-men-and-the-elephant.htm
And then there are reloaders and annealing, seems no matter what things stay the same.
I have suggested reloaders think; that does not work. In the big inning I decided there were rules/factors that applied to annealing so I sat down and made a tool for annealing cases based on annealing rules and factors.
F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
Going around semantics entirely,
A 'Home' reloader can't possibly CONFERM any process without a hardness tester.
Period.
I don't know any 'Home' reloader with a Rockwell (or similar) testing machine & the training/experence to use it.
Without some imperial testing method, you simply CAN NOT make any recomendation on what does or doesn't work. Period.
You can link to what ever article or web site you want to, doesn't matter, all just farts in the wind until you get yourself a Hardness Tester and learn to use it CORRECTLY. Period.
Its VERY hard to make any point in particular on the Internet since you get shouted down by the armchair quarterbacks, fan boys, Internet researchers (no abilities or equipment, just google and a few favorite web articles, written by people just as technically illiterate as the poster), ect.
When someone with access to a full machine shop, testing equipment, fully qualified to operate that testing equipment tries to clear up what 'Used' to be done, how its done today, and how you can reproduce results (with vairying degrees of success) with a little education & equipment, he gets shouted down by the Peanut Gallery...
Mr. Guffey is correct, you can't teach much over the Internet, too much background noise and interruptions, and way too many cooks in the kitchen.
A 'Home' reloader can't possibly CONFERM any process without a hardness tester.
Period.
I don't know any 'Home' reloader with a Rockwell (or similar) testing machine & the training/experence to use it.
Without some imperial testing method, you simply CAN NOT make any recomendation on what does or doesn't work. Period.
You can link to what ever article or web site you want to, doesn't matter, all just farts in the wind until you get yourself a Hardness Tester and learn to use it CORRECTLY. Period.
Its VERY hard to make any point in particular on the Internet since you get shouted down by the armchair quarterbacks, fan boys, Internet researchers (no abilities or equipment, just google and a few favorite web articles, written by people just as technically illiterate as the poster), ect.
When someone with access to a full machine shop, testing equipment, fully qualified to operate that testing equipment tries to clear up what 'Used' to be done, how its done today, and how you can reproduce results (with vairying degrees of success) with a little education & equipment, he gets shouted down by the Peanut Gallery...
Mr. Guffey is correct, you can't teach much over the Internet, too much background noise and interruptions, and way too many cooks in the kitchen.
It's worse. If you look at the plot, given that all you need to do is to stress-relieve the brass from its work-hardening, you'll see the Rockwell hardness drops only a little in that range, so the before and after hardness test results may not be different enough to detect completed stress relief accurately. But if you have the ability to make the crystal structure visible, under enough magnification you can actually see the displaced grain boundaries in the work-hardened piece and see them pulled back in place after stress-relieving.
Member Mete is a metallurgist, btw, which is why I was asking him about the time relationship. I hope he gets time to answer.
Member Mete is a metallurgist, btw, which is why I was asking him about the time relationship. I hope he gets time to answer.
The reason it can be hard to learn from the internet teachers is because they don't know how to teach . It really does not matter how much you know or even if you're right . If you can't translate your knowledge so others can understand . You're just wasting time while falsely thinking everyone else does not have a clue . Sometimes new guys to what ever is being asked need a place to start or they just spin there wheels .
I remember in grade school having a teacher that thought teaching your self was a better way , or at least that's what I got from some of his answers . I remember asking how to spell pneumonia . He said to go look it up in the dictionary . So there I was looking through all the "N's" . I looked for what seemed forever and never did find how to spell "pneumonia" .
It does not matter how smart you are . If you can't explain your point effectively you really should look in on your self and see if you can be a more effective teacher . If you are unwilling to self evaluate stop posting in threads that have people asking how to spell pneumonia .
Unclenick is a FANTASTIC example of someone that knows how to teach through the written word .
I remember in grade school having a teacher that thought teaching your self was a better way , or at least that's what I got from some of his answers . I remember asking how to spell pneumonia . He said to go look it up in the dictionary . So there I was looking through all the "N's" . I looked for what seemed forever and never did find how to spell "pneumonia" .
It does not matter how smart you are . If you can't explain your point effectively you really should look in on your self and see if you can be a more effective teacher . If you are unwilling to self evaluate stop posting in threads that have people asking how to spell pneumonia .
Unclenick is a FANTASTIC example of someone that knows how to teach through the written word .
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JeepHammer
Moderator
WHY TO ANNEAL.
1. Consistant Neck Tension,
involving a consistant diameter bullet, and consistently sized case, and consistant case hardness.
2. Case Lonjevity,
An annealed neck & shoulder minimizes stress line fracturing (splits & cracks) giving longer case use life.
3. Easier To Size Cases, both easier on the case and reloading equipment.
Soft shoulders/necks simply resize easier, and don't produce as much 'Spring Back' giving you more consistant cases (depending on the equipment).
WHEN TO ANNEAL.
Depends on application, but generally when before the case neck/shoulder reaches Rockwell B Scale 90 or higher.
Keeping shoulder under Rockwell B 90 greatly increases case useful life,
Hyper accurate shooters will want to anneal every time to start with a consistant case hardness.
Often why hyper accurate shooters use NEW cases with consistantly soft shoulders/necks that are 'Dead Soft'.
Common shooters that are looking to increas case life should anneal every 3 or 4 loadings in common cases, high pressure magnums should anneal more often, so should anyone with a sloppy chamber neck or excessive headspace.
PREPERATION.
Annealing a dirty case is a waste of time and money.
This includes the inside of the case.
If the inside & outside aren't spotless clean, annealing temperatures are only going to bond/infuse the crud/trace metals into the brass.
IN THE STRONGEST TERMS, I recommend steel pin cleaning before annealing!
HOW TO ANNEAL, GAS,
Stay away from 'Jet' torches, stick with smaller (cigarette or electrical soldering) size torch heads.
The old 'Plumbers Torch' and/or MAPP gas is only going to overheat the crap out of the outside of the case.
Smaller torch or torches, LONGER TIME gives you MUCH better heat penetration from outside to inside, much more EVEN heating of the case,
MUCH better Heat Effect Zone control on the case,
And slower heating gives you more time to prevent mistakes/overheating.
Open gas ports, more like a gas range flame, give you a flame MUCH closer to the optimum temp for annealing than a 'Jet' torch will give you.
When you watch videos of the factory flame annealing going on, pay attention to the flame, usually just an orifice flame and not an oxygen enhanced 'Jet' torch flame.
ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE HEATING,
Electrical Resistance is what an electric range 'Burner' uses.
Electrical current is run through a conductor with electrical resistance, heating the conductor up as it resists the flow of electrical current.
Using the electrical resistance metal that is heating up, and placing the brass in contact with the heated metal.
An EASY resistance heater can very easily be made from a steel case gauge, an electric range replacment coil wrapped around the case gauge, and the electrical control 'Knob' control from an electric stove.
Resistance material heats the case gauge, case gauge is sized to be in almost 100% contact with the case, case gauge transfers heat to brass.
One VERY attractive part of this system is PRECISE heat control,
One serious draw back is the unit is very hot and its easy to burn yourself.
ELECTRICAL MAGNETIC INDUCTION ANNEALING.
This is probably the easiest way to do things, no open flames, no high amperage current, no requiring for gas bottles or 240 electrical outlets.
A DC (Direct Current) circuit is polarity switches VERY quickly from positive to negative in a conductor coil, this produces an intense electromagnetic field that is changing polarity (magnetic 'Poles') at a very high rate,
As the magnetic poles 'Flip' the excite molicules of brass in the coil.
No actual electrical current is passing through the brass, just the magnetic fields.
As the molicules are exited, they move around and create friction, friction produces heat on a molecular level, all the way through the brass at the same time, no 'Heat Soak' effect waiting for heat on the outside of the brass to 'Soak' through to the inside,
Just totally consistan heating all the way through at exactly the same time, EXTREMELY CONSISTANT ANNEALING,
Nothing heats that's not inside the coil, so effective control of Heat Effect Zone (shoulder & neck).
These home units are small, economical to operate (110 volt power) and extremely consistant since most use digital timers.
They ARE costly right now, between $500 & $1,500 commonly, up to about $4,000 for the technically advanced models,
Pricy for the 'Weekend Warrior', but not out of the question for serious reloaders/shooters.
You CAN build your own version pretty cost effectively if you know my thing about electronics... If you get shocked plugging in an extention cord or changing batteries in a flashlight, might not want to try this...
1. Consistant Neck Tension,
involving a consistant diameter bullet, and consistently sized case, and consistant case hardness.
2. Case Lonjevity,
An annealed neck & shoulder minimizes stress line fracturing (splits & cracks) giving longer case use life.
3. Easier To Size Cases, both easier on the case and reloading equipment.
Soft shoulders/necks simply resize easier, and don't produce as much 'Spring Back' giving you more consistant cases (depending on the equipment).
WHEN TO ANNEAL.
Depends on application, but generally when before the case neck/shoulder reaches Rockwell B Scale 90 or higher.
Keeping shoulder under Rockwell B 90 greatly increases case useful life,
Hyper accurate shooters will want to anneal every time to start with a consistant case hardness.
Often why hyper accurate shooters use NEW cases with consistantly soft shoulders/necks that are 'Dead Soft'.
Common shooters that are looking to increas case life should anneal every 3 or 4 loadings in common cases, high pressure magnums should anneal more often, so should anyone with a sloppy chamber neck or excessive headspace.
PREPERATION.
Annealing a dirty case is a waste of time and money.
This includes the inside of the case.
If the inside & outside aren't spotless clean, annealing temperatures are only going to bond/infuse the crud/trace metals into the brass.
IN THE STRONGEST TERMS, I recommend steel pin cleaning before annealing!
HOW TO ANNEAL, GAS,
Stay away from 'Jet' torches, stick with smaller (cigarette or electrical soldering) size torch heads.
The old 'Plumbers Torch' and/or MAPP gas is only going to overheat the crap out of the outside of the case.
Smaller torch or torches, LONGER TIME gives you MUCH better heat penetration from outside to inside, much more EVEN heating of the case,
MUCH better Heat Effect Zone control on the case,
And slower heating gives you more time to prevent mistakes/overheating.
Open gas ports, more like a gas range flame, give you a flame MUCH closer to the optimum temp for annealing than a 'Jet' torch will give you.
When you watch videos of the factory flame annealing going on, pay attention to the flame, usually just an orifice flame and not an oxygen enhanced 'Jet' torch flame.
ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE HEATING,
Electrical Resistance is what an electric range 'Burner' uses.
Electrical current is run through a conductor with electrical resistance, heating the conductor up as it resists the flow of electrical current.
Using the electrical resistance metal that is heating up, and placing the brass in contact with the heated metal.
An EASY resistance heater can very easily be made from a steel case gauge, an electric range replacment coil wrapped around the case gauge, and the electrical control 'Knob' control from an electric stove.
Resistance material heats the case gauge, case gauge is sized to be in almost 100% contact with the case, case gauge transfers heat to brass.
One VERY attractive part of this system is PRECISE heat control,
One serious draw back is the unit is very hot and its easy to burn yourself.
ELECTRICAL MAGNETIC INDUCTION ANNEALING.
This is probably the easiest way to do things, no open flames, no high amperage current, no requiring for gas bottles or 240 electrical outlets.
A DC (Direct Current) circuit is polarity switches VERY quickly from positive to negative in a conductor coil, this produces an intense electromagnetic field that is changing polarity (magnetic 'Poles') at a very high rate,
As the magnetic poles 'Flip' the excite molicules of brass in the coil.
No actual electrical current is passing through the brass, just the magnetic fields.
As the molicules are exited, they move around and create friction, friction produces heat on a molecular level, all the way through the brass at the same time, no 'Heat Soak' effect waiting for heat on the outside of the brass to 'Soak' through to the inside,
Just totally consistan heating all the way through at exactly the same time, EXTREMELY CONSISTANT ANNEALING,
Nothing heats that's not inside the coil, so effective control of Heat Effect Zone (shoulder & neck).
These home units are small, economical to operate (110 volt power) and extremely consistant since most use digital timers.
They ARE costly right now, between $500 & $1,500 commonly, up to about $4,000 for the technically advanced models,
Pricy for the 'Weekend Warrior', but not out of the question for serious reloaders/shooters.
You CAN build your own version pretty cost effectively if you know my thing about electronics... If you get shocked plugging in an extention cord or changing batteries in a flashlight, might not want to try this...