Angry Mob Attacks Family... (This DOES happen!)

[cracked91]

I think mob attacks would be much more likely in some kind of SHTF scenario, blackout, natural disaster, etc. As for me, being that I am still a teenage boy (19) I am willing to bet that after a single gunshot everyone one of those kids would have scattered.

Mobs are made of cowards. The reason they bring 50 people to do a simple thing is because not a single one of them is prepared to be possibly hurt or killed. So when they start hearing bullets flying, every single one of their brains has the same thing pop up on screen "OH **** " In all honesty I would say a few firecrackers would scatter most of a mob. And remember, the bigger a mob is, the more confusion there is going to be which transforms into fear very quickly.

 

[skifast]

The guy is lucky he wasn't seriously hurt or killed. Sure, there is no guarantee that pulling a gun and shooting the guys in front would make them run. There is also no guarantee that the guy would not have been killed and his wife and daughters raped and killed.

If it is me, I empty my mags shooting at their heads, while trying to get in the house and grabbing the AK and throwing my wife the Mossy.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Choosing most likely is a criterion for some. Most likely in the gun world will be solved with an unloaded gun as most DGUs are deterrent in nature with no shots fired.

As I have said many times (big yawn by now) - the issue is not the modal incident but a reasonable cut off in the extremes or consideration of whether the incident distribution is really multimodal.

One modal lump is the one mugger, no shots, deterrent usage. Thus, that's the one that folks say they can handle with a limited gun.

Another modal lump of lesser probabilities is the extreme, higher intensity incident - such as rampage shooting, large group attack.

It's rare but does happen. What is a reasonable set up for this kind of incident that is comparable with normal dress and gives you reasonable options? It is not an outfit that goes to war. I've hung out with people with such rigs in regular old restaurants, etc. and we don't look like a SWAT time. Just folks with a casual vest or floppy shirt.

I opine that a semi with one or two hicap mags works. Also, from experience and from the people I train with, it is not hard to do and can be comfortable.

About the mob scene - mobs have been fairly well studied. They stratify into:

1. Leaders in the attack
2. Close followers who are right after the leaders
3. Pack - that usually hangs back until they see the leaders being successful.

Taking out #1 and 2 with some hits in 3 would probably turn them around. 2 and 3 usually stop if 1 is removed.

Can you do it in real time? Time and distance, cover, etc. - you will have to be there.

You can plan for reasonable criterion cuts, so that the 300 round cliche is just rhetoric.

Also, as pointed out before - the extra mag is for the rare event of a malfunction (not so rare with some guns).

Many clearance drills are to rip out the mag and toss it and reload. Low probability but it's low p that you even need bullets.

As far as the argument just revolving around hardware - that's also silly - it's not a magic wand so if you don't train and just carry a gun and talk about tactics - that's posturing from my point of view. As a FOG - I don't train and practice because I think the gun by itself is Green Lantern's power ring.

But why train - there's a modal, most likely scenario that I just wave the gun around without firing a shot. Who gives a crap about sight picture, trigger re-set, grip, fast reloads, off hand drills, one hand drills for injured shooters, clearance, etc. It's most likely it will never happen - what a waste of time! Thus, buy a gun and practice waving it at the single mugger. That's all you need according the misapplied view of risk and statistics.

That's the arguments - carry what you want based on your view of probabilities. Such a bore.

 

[Evan Thomas]

One reason that I don't envy him is that it would certainly seem to me (in the calm of retrospection) that he was never in imminent danger of losing his life (or the lives of his family).

The guy is lucky he wasn't seriously hurt or killed.

I think the article said Mr. Marshall spent five days in a critical care unit with a head injury, which I'd say was evidence that he was in "imminent danger" of losing his life. (And is looking at thousands of dollars in medical bills.) He's lucky he's not dead, but that's a far cry from walking away.

Doc, you may be right about what would have happened if he'd shot before anyone hit him, but once he was on the ground, I'd say he or anyone else in his party would have been in "reasonable fear of his life."

And I think TG's point about disparity of force is a good one. A mob of 50??

Mobs are made of cowards.

Mmm... Not an assumption I'd put to the test, if I had a choice. They're probably made of some cowards, and some braver dudes, and some just plain idiots who care more about looking good in front of their buddies than about doing the smart thing...

I think this assumption is sort of a corollary of the one about the magic power of the gun...

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Thus, buy a gun and practice waving it at the single mugger. That's all you need according the misapplied view of risk and statistics.

That's the general response to my argument, the standard sort of "make the argument seem silly". Looking down on it from my perch in academia, with a sneer and sniff, or, by those who simply choose to ignore all the facts of every kind, they call it silly, wrong, unprepared, signing my own death warrant, ready to die, but never refute it.

Except, that's not my argument. That's the big problem there. Not a single person has yet addressed my argument.

and then there's this:

Insisting others are somehow incorrect for doing it is just getting plan old silly.

Old argument - Ben's right!

So, it doesn't go both ways, I suppose, which has been the general flow of these discussions. I am wrong for saying that there is such a thing as over prepared, and the line is lower than some people think but those same people are not wrong for saying that I am under prepared, "prepared to die", etc....


Not that any of this has to do with my original point about the OP, which was that having a gun, of any capacity, would not have automatically made this a better situation. Believing that having a gun will make things better for you is a very dangerous assumption. Maybe more dangerous than believing that NOT having a gun will make things better.

That's my big beef here. If he had a gun it would have been better for him. That is an unbelievably enormous and dangerous assumption.

 

[NWPilgrim]

Thanks to the OP for the post. For those of us who want to defend ourselves in the face of daunting odds it is a good reminder that there are situations where the threat may be more than one or two attackers. We all have to judge the particular circumstance at the time and chose our own actions that seem appropriate.

For some, obviously, they prefer to fight only when the odds are in their favor and that is their choice. In that case I don't understand why you would carry at all (perhaps you don't) since you are likely to be surprised and at an initial disadvantage in most threat scenarios. Sometimes we may see things unfold, but the nature of legal defense means the other party has already initiated his plan of action against you before you can draw and fire.

For me, I choose to have the tools at hand to exercise a range of responses, and decide which option to execute. Thanks for the reminder and a real life scenario we can consider.

 

[fisherman66]

I want to prevent this from happening to me. What do you suggest?

Weather rocket kills man and blows up his body at cremation
A Chinese man originally thought to have been struck by lightning was in fact killed by a small weather rocket whose existence was only discovered when his body exploded during his cremation.


By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Published: 1:07PM GMT 16 Dec 2008

The body of Wang Diange, from the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia, was found in the wreckage of a house where he had been overseeing the wake of a previous family funeral, after mourners felt a loud explosion which took off half the roof.

As it was raining and thundery, they decided that the house, and Mr Wang in particular, had been struck by lightning. The police came to the same conclusion.

Further inquiries were made a few days later after Mr Wang's own funeral. As his body was being put into the cremation chamber, it blew up spectacularly, bursting the doors off the oven.

When the fire had been put out, the only clue as to what had happened was a small twisted piece of metal, which seemed to be the glowing remnants of a screw.

At first, local metallurgists were unable to determine what it was, though they noted it bore a military serial number. After a lengthy investigation, however, it was suggested it might be part of a shell casing.

Inquiries revealed that the rainfall on the day of the original disaster was triggered by the local weather bureau, which had been firing shells into the atmosphere to break up hail in order to protect the local tobacco crop.

Inside the shells were silver iodide, a chemical that helps to break up hail into rain.

Their own investigators concluded that one shell must have failed to explode, hit the house, and lodged in Mr Wang's body. There it passed unnoticed because of his extensive injuries, according to local newspaper reports.

As a result, and three years after Mr Wang died, his family have now received 80,000 yuan (£8,000) in compensation from the weather bureau.

Me Chinese, me play jest, me put weather rocket in yer chest.



wow

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I want to prevent this from happening to me. What do you suggest?"

Stay inside where the big, bad, rokkitz can't get at you.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"For some, obviously, they prefer to fight only when the odds are in their favor and that is their choice."

Sometimes the difference between life and death is knowing when to fight and when to run.

There are LOTS of dead people throughout the ages who chose unwisely.

 

[Evan Thomas]

I want to prevent this from happening to me. What do you suggest?

Weather rocket kills man and blows up his body at cremation

Stay inside where the big, bad, rokkitz can't get at you.

Well, that didn't work for Mr. Wang, did it? He was inside.

The body of Wang Diange, from the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia, was found in the wreckage of a house where he had been overseeing the wake of a previous family funeral, after mourners felt a loud explosion which took off half the roof.

A bunker... Must... have... a bunker.

And I want to be buried in it, which will solve the not-blowing-up-when-I'm-cremated part of the problem.

 

[Wildalaska]

Not the fuzzy wuzzies? You know they broke the square!

Fuzzy Wuzzies were Hadendoa, not Hottentotts...

O my Gawd.......FUZZY WUZZY!!!!!!! Where is my Solar Topee! I must emote! Emote emote emote

WE'VE FOUGHT with many men acrost the seas,
An' some of 'em was brave an' some was not:
The Paythan an' the Zulu an' Burmese;
But the Fuzzy was the finest o' the lot.
We never got a ha'porth's change of 'im:
'E squatted in the scrub an' 'ocked our 'orses,
'E cut our sentries up at Suakim,
An' 'e played the cat an' banjo with our forces.

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

We took our chanst among the Khyber 'ills,
The Boers knocked us silly at a mile,
The Burman give us Irriwaddy chills,
An' a Zulu impi dished us up in style:
But all we ever got from such as they
Was pop to what the Fuzzy made us swaller;
We 'eld our bloomin' own, the papers say,
But man for man the Fuzzy knocked us 'oller.

Then 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' the missis and the kid;
Our orders was to break you, an' of course we went an' did.
We sloshed you with Martinis, an' it wasn't 'ardly fair;
But for all the odds agin' you, Fuzzy-Wuz, you broke the square.

'E 'asn't got no papers of 'is own,
'E 'asn't got no medals nor rewards,
So we must certify the skill 'e's shown
In usin' of 'is long two-'anded swords:
When 'e's 'oppin' in an' out among the bush
With 'is coffin-'eaded shield an' shovel-spear,
An 'appy day with Fuzzy on the rush
Will last an 'ealthy Tommy for a year.

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' your friends which are no more,
If we 'adn't lost some messmates we would 'elp you to deplore;
But give an' take's the gospel, an' we'll call the bargain fair,
For if you 'ave lost more than us, you crumpled up the square!

'E rushes at the smoke when we let drive,
An', before we know, 'e's 'ackin' at our 'ead;
'E's all 'ot sand an' ginger when alive,
An' 'e's generally shammin' when 'e's dead.
'E's a daisy, 'e's a ducky, 'e's a lamb!
'E's a injia-rubber idiot on the spree,
'E's the on'y thing that doesn't give a damn
For a Regiment o' British Infantree!

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
An' 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your 'ayrick 'ead of 'air -
You big black boundin' beggar - for you broke a British square!


WildcorblimeyAlaska ™

 

[markj]

ONLY 31 rounds?

A good marksman will "line up" his targets allowing him to get 3 or 4 at a time with one single shot.

In this scenario, I tried to find the ultimate CCW to protect me and anyone close at the time of the event. I decided on a belt fed .50 but the casings keep tickleing me when placed in the IWB CC holster I had specially made. Maybe I need to put the belt in the back of my pants? ........


Now if that group of guys came upon us on our 4th celebration they would have faced 4 large dogs already upset over the firecrackers and would love the chance to bite back.......

 

[Mike Irwin]

The rokkitz didn't get him inside the house...

The Illuminati did, and BLAMED it on the rokkitz.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"A good marksman will "line up" his targets allowing him to get 3 or 4 at a time with one single shot."

That's COD:WAW Nazi Zombies.

Let's stick with something that vaguely resembles reality...

 

[Donn_N]

It seems to me that the main point of the OP was as an example of why one should carry copious amounts of spare ammunition. In that respect, I would opine that it fails as such an example. If drawing your weapon and firing does not immediately disperse the crowd (in which case you need no reloads) and it becomes necessary to shoot your weapon until it is empty, the odds that you will be able to reload before the mob overwhelms you are pretty much zero. One guy with one handgun against a determined mob of 50 is dead no matter how many reloads he is carrying.

However, the thread seems to have morphed into a discussion more about using a gun against a crowd. Personally, if I have 50 ****** off teenagers attacking me and retreat is not an option, I'll have little problem (morally, that is) drawing my weapon and firing. I'm not naive enough to think that it would guarantee a more positive outcome, but I think it would be better than laying there in the fetal position until I took a fatal blow to the head. It is just pure luck Marshall survived.

In this particular case, if I were Marshall, I think I'd be looking for some new friends as well since they seemed to have treated the whole thing as a spectator sport.

Anybody else annoyed that this isn't being classified as a hate crime?

 

[Donn_N]

One reason that I don't envy him is that it would certainly seem to me (in the calm of retrospection) that he was never in imminent danger of losing his life (or the lives of his family).

He was facing an angry crowd of teenagers, yes, but none of them apparently had or brandished or even displayed a firearm, a stick, a golf club, a ball bat, or any weapon at all, as far as I can tell.

You're joking, right?

 

[TailGator]

Anybody else annoyed that this isn't being classified as a hate crime?

Yes, Donn N, I brought that up and it didn't attract a single comment. With this group, I am pretty sure that political correctness is not the reason.

I agree with you on your comments on reloading, too.

One of my concerns in this situation would be having the gun taken away from me and used on myself or the other innocents nearby. Again, I don't think I am good enough to rapid-fire through a magazine, reload, and rapid-fire through the second that I usually carry - I'm not sure anyone really is. If a first shot or two doesn't make the others run, there is a real danger that I will be overwhelmed and lose the gun.

So, am I better off not pulling it and hoping that concealment holds? Or, to take the other extreme, is this one of the rare instances where a warning shot or two is a good idea?

I'm still say that I am not sure there is an excellent tactic for this situation. Like some other recent posts, I have to think that facing 50 hostile people who eventually beat a man down and put him in an ICU for 5 days would constitute a justifiable use of lethal force to defend oneself. But legally justifiable and good tactics aren't always the same. It seems like whatever you do in this situation you are going to have to get a little lucky to get out of it.

 

[Wait I'm Reloadin']

capacity problem could have been solved if wife and two adult buddies had ccw along with him, and covered each other! this is too much to think about in the USA right now people. gosh its sad what might:barf: happen

 

[overkill556x45]

Here's a practical question from a small town Iowa boy: how do "dozens" of angry young men flood into your back yard without you noticing? Even through half a bottle of Maker's Mark, I can still tell when things are approaching (I know from years of camping).

I'd be pretty tempted to use the gun just to make space to get the girls inside and bunker down (it says they were at someone's house). That way I really would have access to hundreds of rounds of ammunition and lots of firearms.

Weird stuff happens I guess. I'll be on the lookout for angry mobs and Nazi zombies now too.

 

[Evan Thomas]

Anybody else annoyed that this isn't being classified as a hate crime?

Based on the article cited, there isn't enough information to say whether it was or not. The one quoted reference to a remark about race doesn't seem sufficient, and we don't know who the teenagers who made up the mob were, where they came from, or what set them off.