...And old-style muzzle-loaders...

I have a question for the smokepole brigade at large, does anyone know where one might find a decent replica of the British Long Land Servce musket(Brown Bess)? The ones I've found either look like a junior high school shop project or run over $600, with nothing in between. Having read the Richard Cromwell "Sharpe" series, I think I've got to have one. That particular rifle has a remarkable military history and is surely one of the weapons that changed the world, in the same league as the Roman shortsword and the British Longbow. I'd take a kit, if it was reasonable. Any help would be appreciated.
 
Hey Big G!

Burning your hair off? Are you shooting nekkid? ;).

You're right about the sense of satisfaction when you can get a flintlock to work. For me I'm still learning to adjust the flint to the frizzen. Haven't practiced flint knapping yet and will have to to bring new life to old flints.

Congratulations on completing your kit. I read about one Middle School where the teacher had the kids each build one. The School Superintendent came by to audit the class and that very night, called the instructor to tell him that he was now building his own. At the end of the semester, the kids are given firearm safety instructions and a test which they must pass. They are then taken to the range to shoot their muzzleoaders. Now why didn't we have a class like that in Middle School?

Gary

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
There is one custom gunsmith who hand builds the Long Pattern Brown Bess. It isn't cheap ($1k). I'll dig up the name and address later if you're interested.

If you're into Napoleonic era, the Short Pattern Brown Bess (especially the inferior India Pattern) would be more appropriate. The Long Pattern was produced up until 1790 (I think), but by the French Indian War, the majority of Brown Bess purchased by His Majesty's Government were of the Short Pattern. British Regiments in the Penninsula were armed with the 42" Short Pattern and the Light Bobs (as Robert Crauford's Light Division comprising of the 43nd, 52rd Light Infantry Regiments and the 95th Rifle Brigade) were armed with a 39" Light Infantry model of the Brown Bess.

The Rifle Shoppe will build you a Baker but that would also cost you over $1k.

Gary

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt



[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited July 29, 1999).]
 
Thanks! I'd like the name/address if you get a chance. I'm kind of fascinated by the rifle, it seems almost inconceivable to me that one rifle could have served as the main battle rifle for such a long period of time. Kipling wrote poetry about it, and just think how many generations of men were counting on that rifle to win the day. That rifle and the right tactics to go with it MADE the British empire, IMHO. (Of course, their Navy didn't hurt, either.)All they needed to do was stand their ground and fire three rounds a minute. Damn, that seems so implausible today! Anyway, if you could look up those addresses and post them I'd really appreciate it. Thanks again!

[This message has been edited by bushmaster (edited July 29, 1999).]
 
Gary, you already know, but for those who don't... When the powder ignites in the flash pan, it instantaneously creates a fireball which rises straight up. If you're firing from the hip, it goes right into your face!

I wish I would've gone to a middle school like that, too!

Bushmaster, a minor correction... the Brown Bess is a musket, not a rifle. The musket is a smoothbore, rifle has spiral grooves cut in the bbl.

Best Regards All, BigG

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Yankee Doodle
 
Thanks, but I meant it in the sense that it fits the same military function. You are quite right about the barrels, and I did use the term incorrectly. My apologies.
 
Here in Texas we remember the Brown Bess as being one of, if not the only primary arm of Gen. Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna's army of a couple of thousand regulars who held the Alamo besieged for a good long while.

We also remember that it was a bunch of Tennesse long rifles that were used to repel some nine concerted attempts to overrun the mission.
 
4V50 Gary: Checked out D&R Sports, which is a great site even if it does take a year and a day to download (I'm at T1, so I know the problem wasn't here...). Only problem was, they had *NO* Lyman muzzle loaders. All sorts of T.C. smokestacks, but I think I've settled on the Lyman. Under $300 is more like it!! I can shoot it awhile and put my own sight on.

I really hate those buckhorn sights, no matter how authentic they are. Give me a good peepsight, and I'm doing just fine!
 
Bushmaster, I think these folks will make a Brown Bess for you:
http://www.palongrifles.com

G. L. Jones also makes the First Model Brown Bess. He may be reached at gljones@aol.com or at 435-257-2825. His prices are $1,250 for a built rifle and $800 for a kit, add $250 for either if you want English Walnut.

Longpath: I have on my lap the D&R Catalog. Page 77 has Lyman on it.

50 Cal per. 1 in 66" twist LY6031102
54 Cal per. 1 in 66" twist LY6031103
50 Cal per. 1 in 32" twist LY6031120
54 Cal per. 1 in 32" twist LY6031121

All are priced at $254.97. You can call them direct at 570-735-1752.

Sights are

20MJT Target Sight @ $20.70 LY3201150
20LJT Target Sight @ $20.70 LY3201155
16AML Rear sight @ 8.82 LY3090117
16 & 37 ML Hunting Set @ $11.88, LY3090106.

Try again and let me know if D&R discontinued Lyman (darn, I was thinking of buying a percussion cap and putting a 32" brass telescope on it).

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[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited July 30, 1999).]
 
Too, too cool. I may order the peep from Lyman... I don't think any of those is the Lyman peep that I was looking at....
 
First Model Brown Bess muskets may also be had from:

Track of the Wolf, Inc.
P.O. Box 6
Osseo, MN 55369-0006

Tel: 612-424-2500, Fax: 612-424-9860
http://www.trackofthewolf.com

Track of the Wolf's price is $720 for a kit. The kit may be customized for different trim and you may want their catalog $7 to see what is available. They have a used First Model Brown Bess with bayonet, scabbard, leather gun case, sling and flash guard which they're offering for $1199 (plus $18 p&p). They said it will go fast.

Another source for the Brown Bess is

Narragansett Armes, Ltd.
The Stutz Business Center
212 West 10th Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202

ph: 317-917-0847

Catalog is $5 and they have no website.

So Bushmaster, do you intend to take the King's shilling and go over the hills and far away?

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Acually, I took Mr Reagan's shilling and did go over the hills and far,far away, but that was a while ago, and I'm back now. Sometimes I think I was born too late, but I gotta tell ya, I'm not sure I could fight that way.

I didn't have a problem with getting shot or blown up, that's a soldier's chance, but STANDING there in ranks WAITING for it,or getting two feet of steel rammed through my guts in the smoke, I really don't know if I could do it. Add in the practically non-existent medical processes of the period, and it becomes even less attractive, I really don't want to count on maggots to clean my wounds.

Truly,it was a time of tough battles and tougher soldiers.Thanks for all your help.
 
Bushmaster,

Then you would like the 1/60th Regiment, Royal Americans (1755). The 2nd divison was under the leadership of Col. Henry Bouquet who taught his men light infantry tactics. Unlike regular troops which fought in linear formations, Bouquet believed that open order skirmishing was the way forest warfare should be fought. He also experimented with buckskin or Indian clothing and rifles for his troops.

When the 60th was created, they were issued with the cumbersome First Model Brown Bess.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
(not bushmaster anymore-new nick!)
Why the heck would they issue that musket for that kind of fighting? That sounds like typical military intelligence to me! I thought the whole reason for the formations was to give the muskets a chance to be effective by firing in volleys, making up for a lack of accuracy with volume? Sort of like standing toe to toe with MAC-10's? Wouldn't a company that fought indian style be better armed with rifles? Or was that musket just what was available at the time?

Hey, should we do this by e-mail? I'm really enjoying this discussion!
 
Good point Artech. Would you believe, because that's all there was. Even Roger's Rangers were issued with a shortened version of the Brown Bess.

Back in the 1700s, not many armies had rifles and volume of fire was considered more important that accuracy. A rifle, you recall, had a tighter fit between its bore and the ball and required longer time to load (about 1 shot a minute). The looser fitting musket allowed a trained solider to fire about 4 shots a minute and at close quarters, to use a term coined by Maj. Pilaster (The Ultimate Sniper), the rifleman enjoyed no "balllistic advantage". Some jaegers of the German principalities and irregulars of the Austro-Hungarian Army were armed with rifles. These "light troops" were so effective that Frederick the Great was forced to form his own light infantry to counter them. By and large, all armies of that era relied on muskets and the bayonet.

Turning back to Col. Bouquet, (Swiss by birth), he did procure a few (16) rifles for issue within the 1/60. 4 went to the 1st Div of the 1/60 and 12 remained with his 2nd Div. 1/60. It is my understanding that these rifles, originally from a lot of 50 purchased in 1746 for the expedition against Louisberg, were not of English make and were from the European Continent.

Bouquet then was an original thinker. Recalling the defeat of General Braddock in his attempt against Fort Duquense, he realized that the linear formations were at a great disadvantage in the forests. Accordingly he trained his troops accordingly for open order fighting, experimented with buckskin or brown cloth for greater concealment (as opposed to the red coat) and procured a few rifles. In 1756, that was very radical for military thinking. Indian warfare was very fluid and didn't give much chance for close quarters (unlike the latest remake of The Last of the Mohicans). The Indians were smart enough to fire from concealment, and duck down to reload. If the bayonet got too close, he retreated until he could fire again. Not very European but very effective. Hence, Bouquet sought to neutralize this by adoption of their tactics.

Bouquet was not alone in the use of rifles. Col. Prevost also of the Royal Americans (the Royal American Regiment was unusual in that it was 4 battalions strong and Prevost was from the 4/60) was reimbursed for 300 rifle carbines with steel rammers. Said rifles were distributed among picked troops of various regiments. Probably the vast majority of rifles carried were the long rifles of the militia.

Longpath: You're right about Lyman rifles not being listed on the D&R website. I emailed them and they responded that they still carry them. Drop them a line (if Mrs. Longpath lets you).

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[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited August 02, 1999).]
 
Cost and speed of manufacture must have been a factor as well, IIRC, rifles were 3-4 times as expensive and took longer to produce. Where did the Royal Americans serve? Were they thrown against Napolean's trops in europe or were they a strictly colonial outfit?

[This message has been edited by artech (edited August 02, 1999).]
 
The 60th Royal Americans served mostly in the New World, including the West Indies. Bouquet's 1/60 participated in the capture of Fort Duquense. The 4/60 (if I'm not mistaken) participated in the ill-fated attack on Fort Ticonderoga. The 2/60 and 3/60 fought on the Plains of Abraham where they earned from Gen. Wolfe their motto, "Celer et Audax" (Swift and Bold). After the war, the 3/60 and 4/60 were demobilised only to be reraised for the American revolution. They fought in mostly South Carolina (Charleston) and were among the first mounted infantry.

By Napoleonic times, (1797), a 5th Battalion was raised under Francis de Rottenberg who trained them as riflemen and outfitted them in green jackets (with red facings). Their uniform was probably influenced by that of the jaegers units serving in the European armies. The 5/60 were the original "green jackets" riflemen in the British Army. Origianlly they were armed with the Hompesch rifle when they served in the New World. Transferred to Ireland for refitting, they joined the British Army in the Penninsula (the Hompesch was replaced with the Baker) and served under Wellington. Later battalions were raised (6th, a light infantry unit, also served in the Pennisula). The 2/60 served only briefly in Portugal before being returned to the New World. The 7/60 was raised from captured Germans who were serving the French. They were given their 3 guineas bounty, sent to the New World and served for 5 years prior to discharge and settlement into Canada. After 1814, many battalions of the 60th were disbanded and the 5/60 was too depleted to serve at Waterloo (some of its officers did though).

As a sidenote Rottenberg's thinking caught on and was adopted by Col. Coote Manningham when he raised the Experimental Corps of Rifleman (later the 95th). Gen. John Moore also adopted some of the teachings when he trained the Light Division at Shorncliffe. Incidentally, Gen. Robert Crauford (Light Division) served briefly as the Col. of the 5/60 and there is suppose to be a painting of him somewhere in a colonel's uniform of the 5/60. Crauford later led the 43, 52 and 95th Rifle Brigade to distinction during the Penninsular War.

While the 60th remained basically a red coated infantry unit, by Napleonic times, each battalion had a rifle company (dressed in green jackets). By 1820 though, all batttalions of the 60th were either light infantry or rifle battalions. The 60th later became the King's Royal Rifle Corps which was amalgamated along with the 43 & 52 (Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire) and 95th (Rifle Brigade) into The Royal Green Jackets Regiment. If you visit their museum in Winchester, England, it is well worth the effort.

Peter Shore tells of some anecdotes of the 5/60 in the Penninsular in his book, "With British Snipers to the Reich." Similar anecdotes may be found in Skennerton's book, "The British Sniper."

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
One reason the musket was favored is that it was much quicker to reload than a rifle. Anybody who has rammed a patched ball down a rifle barrel can attest to this.
 
OK, before someone else says so, Patrick Ferguson's Corp of Riflemen who fought during the Revolutionary War were the first riflemen dressed in green (at least they were supplied with green cloth with which their clothing was to be made). Ferguson's troops, all 100 of them, were armed with a rifle of his design which was a breechloading flintlock. Being a breechloader, it rivaled the musket in rapidity of loading and was accurate to boot.

If anybody wants a recreated Ferguson breechloading flintlock rifle, Narraggnsett Arms sells them for $2,995. Call Philip Edwards at 317-917-0847. It's limited to a production run of 250 guns only - and that's 150 more than were made for the British Army.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
4V50Gary: Re: Your remark about having to learn flint-knapping in order to manage your new rifle: Have you ever heard this? "Anyone who says you can't get blood from a stone has never tried knapping flint!" Ouch! slabsides

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An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject; a disarmed man is a slave.
 
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