An interesting home defense gun experiment.

Good video.

Wide open space - no walls, no doors, no furniture, no obstacles to navigate around or for perps to hide behind. Rifles are great for outdoors use - proves nothing about home defense use, however.

It's daytime in the video - most home invasions are going to be at night - you might need a free hand to turn on lights, find your cell phone, hold a flashlight, open doors, etc. Rifles, even carbines are two-handed instruments for most untrained people.

Do you really think someone who is unfamiliar with AR's is going to keep a round chambered and the AR in a convenient location for home defense? Probably not. So, she's going to have to chamber a round before the AR becomes anything more than an awkward stick. I'd like to time how long that takes her - watch the video again, she doesn't even chamber a round - done prior to the video! On the other hand, a DA/SA handgun is good to go as soon as you pick it up.

How many people carry their AR's to answer the door? How many people carry a concealable handgun when answering the door?

I could go on and on, but IMHO, a good handgun beats a rifle or shotgun for HD.
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I will chime in, having owned both AR15 and pistol for HD. Currently I only have the AR (for financial reasons had to sell my 2 pistols but I'm saving up to buy one though).

With that video, you have to assume that each was loaded for her unless it specifically states she loaded it herself. Chambering a round with an AR is just as easy as a pistol or shottie. That is a moot point. It takes the same amount of time to load an AR-- insert mag and pull back on charging handle-- the same as a pistol when loading a mag and racking the slide.
A revolver would actually be longer to load...


Everyone's home is configured differently. An AR might work, it might not. IMO the big advantage with the AR is that you can cover both short and long distances just the same and with about equal accuracy. 30rd capacity is a plus, and being able to add a flashlight is even better (yes, doable with a pistol or shotgun too).

No, you don't go answering your front door with a rifle -- but you don't do that with a shotgun either. A pistol would be better for this, but even more suitable is to check first who's behind the door before opening it to a stranger.
 
AR-15/M4, revolver, pistol or shotgun.., the very best HD weapon is the one you are closest to, including carrying.

right now it is a colt revolver on my desk, behind me 10 feet away is a 00 Buck loaded double short barreled 12 Ga. shotgun, a little further away is a Colt AR-15 carbine with a 30 rnd. mag. inserted with BCG rearward.., ooooh, there are no children or Grandkids within 1,000 miles, all but the collector grade firearms in this home are fully loaded.., at all times

how many people answer the door with a weapon ? I DO !
 
Understand. However, policing has changed. The "entry team" has M4's not MForgeries -- full auto and 14" barrel plus flash suppressor. Radiocar Patrolmen have been migrating to the offensive anti-terrorist role from defensive public policing since 9/11. By the way, the US military doesn't buy shotguns just to breach doors either.

I think I agree the video was intentionally slanted but am sure the deabte continues...
 
Funny that LEO entry teams that move in close quarters are moving to M4s.
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Huge difference between a team of soldiers (or policemen) conducting a military assault on a residence (or raid type assault on a residence) and a homeowner defending their family against criminals. Huge difference.
 
Sure, there's a huge difference - but I'm pretty sure his point was that forum members are saying an M4 (or similar) is bad at household distances, and yet entry teams are using such weapons by preference at household distances.

If something went bump in the night, and I had a choice between my M4gery and any pistol, I'd grab the rifle, hands down. However, I also agree with those who say the best weapon is the one that's on you - which means that my rifle would only come into play if I had a lot of warning. There is just about always a pistol or revolver somewhere on my person; if I am wearing enough clothing to answer a door or investigate a noise, odds are I have a weapon on me.

But let's not confuse "convenience" with "effectiveness." Again, with warning beforehand, I'd have the rifle as primary. (My dogs just might provide enough warning - but then again they usually are sufficient deterrents on their own.)

I'll put my M4gery's portability (16" including flash suppressor is hardly a huge disadvantage compared to 14" on police models), effective power (police teams, last I checked, rarely if ever use full auto capability - kind of like the military rarely if ever uses it with the M4), ease of use, and accuracy before those of any shotgun.

And, of course, if I have time to grab a rifle, I have time to supplement it with a holstered or pocketed handgun. Best of both worlds.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Well, if it were allowed - a full auto AR or similar gun with a 3 round burst setting is ideal - if I recall that argument.
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My split times with an AR are in the 0.19-0.23 sec range at those distances. I think that will come close enough to Hitchman's intent.

Skans said:
Huge difference between a team of soldiers (or policemen) conducting a military assault on a residence (or raid type assault on a residence) and a homeowner defending their family against criminals. Huge difference.
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True; but one of the common complaints against the AR is that it is too unwieldly inside a house - yet the people who do it professionally choose it over more compact weapons like the MP5 - and for the most part appear to have no trouble maneuvering through the house.

So that certainly indicates an AR can be used in that role. I think the only question is how much training it takes to hit that level of confidence and whether that level of training is practicable.
 
The common civilian HD shotgun is more unwieldy, IMHO and harder to shoot. It would need an equivalent amount of training, at least.

But not for the just rack it crowd.

Bart, what are your split times for a 12 gauge and times for engaging multiple targets? I haven't been timed on that. Just pop away at matches.
 
Bart, what are your split times for a 12 gauge and times for engaging multiple targets?
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Couldn't tell you. My lifetime round count for 12ga of all types probably doesn't equal some of my busier days in 9mm or 5.56mm, so I don't have a lot of data there. I'll have to drag it out and see. From the Hitchman perspective though, there would be no need for a second shot assuming the first one was well aimed.
 
Unless there were two or more assailants, which is outside of the Hickman discussion. But it is a possibility in a HD situation.

One can also easily miss with a shotgun (OH, that can't be - you fill the room with shot). Then the follow up is slower than an AR, in my experience.

As far as missing - see an IDPA style shotgun match - some people miss (:rolleyes:) or a tac class when you have to move past targets at speed, someone just might miss to the side of a narrow target (:eek:).

Unless someone comes with more than preference, I'd like to see evidence that shotguns are so superior to carbines as the differences have been laid out.

Of course, if a grizzly bear comes to TX, I'll use the shottie with slugs.
 
watching the video did anyone factor the time during a moment of need how long will it take her to turn on the red dot? To be fair it should have been iron sights. how did she miss that badly with the shot gun? I think it just adds to the confusion. the whole thing is decided on just one person? I'm not siding with any one firearm just open to what will work.
 
Living in CA I greatly fear the potential court case if I used the AR over a handgun or shotgun to defend my home.

The shots fired are just the beginning of the fight.
 
watching the video did anyone factor the time during a moment of need how long will it take her to turn on the red dot?
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Most people who have Aimpoints just leave them turned on... the battery life on even the older second generation models is so long that they will last six months to a year at a usable brightness on a single battery.... on the newer third and fourth generation models, you have to replace the batteries less often than you would smoke alarm batteries; though I agree iron sights would be a more relevant comparison to the other two firearms.

the whole thing is decided on just one person?
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No it is just offered as an anecdote to show a novice's experience with several firearms, though those results reflect my own experience with new shooters too. It isn't meant to be the definitive statement on home defense firearms though.
 
I've gone weeks before I realized my red dot was still on.



Not to put words in the OP's mouth but I don't think he showed us this as an end-all-be-all to the HD debate, just an interesting take on the subject.
 
I'm sorry, what?

What exactly does this anecdotal, sub 2 minute video featuring a woman we do not know anything about prove again?

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Nothing really, gets the thought Process going a little bit. May be slanted to favor an AR.

Proves people will watch it then post two-line half sarcastic questions :):D
 
Racking sound - stupid
Don't have to aim - not true
Stopping power - no difference
Penetration - mythology with modern 223 rounds
Ease of use, clearance, capacity, ease of reloading - AR
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I would say shotgun has a definate edge on stopping power. Neither one blows you out your boots like in the movies. However 1 shot from the AR leaves 1 .224 hole in the target. 1 shot from a 12ga loaded with #4 buck has the chance of leaving 27 .240 holes in the target. The comparison of trauma potential shotgun vs rifle more than favors the shotgun in just about any flavor of shell.
 
The .223 at HD ranges is very devastating, little more going on in the tissues than .224. While not beating you up over the shotgun, I have one of those too.
 
My wife is not a gun person, I never push her to try what "I" think is a good gun.
I let her try pistols of different calibers (22lr-9mm-40) & revolvers of different calibers (22lr-38-357), an AR15-a 20gu pump and a 22lr Rifle.

She could not manipulate the slides on the center fire pistols but could on the 22lr. So the center-fires were out. She could shoot them all well, but if there was a malfunction what would she do them.

I thought that a Ruger sp101 with mild 38spl rounds would be perfect for her, nope to much recoil so I did not let her shoot 357.

The AR 15 had too much report for her so she did not want to shoot it.

The shot gun she shot from the hip because I knew that she would not be able to handle the recoil. I know sights are important, but my thinking was that if she pointed it towards the door-way of our bedroom, 15 feet away it would work better than a rock.

What we ended up with was a 10/22 with an ArchAngel stock and a light weight barrel, and a red dot sight. She practices with it, shoots it well, and feel comfortable with it. Another case of "it's better than a rock".
I wish she could handle more but with arthritis this is what we ended up with.
 
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