An interesting home defense gun experiment.

It IS interesting... If it's legit and truly unbiased it says a lot... But (as they say) it's just anecdotal evidence at this point.

The AR15, for instance, seems to fit her better than the shotgun.

Anyhow, I learned something from watching it (...and it's nice and short).
 
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Thanks for the find, Bart.

Obviously she would have done better with the shotgun if she was elderly, had arthritis and it was a pistol grip only gun. We all know that.

You might think I'm kidding but I knew a guy who complained to me that he bought his elderly, frail wife a pistol grip 12 gauge and was annoyed that she didn't want to shoot it.

Whenever, we have a HD thread - someone says - 12 gauge, of course. You don't have to aim and just need to rack it.

That video should end this debate.
 
A typical 12 or 20 guage shotgun loaded with buckshot gives 20+ ft lbs of recoil. That is heavy 30-06 to 300 win mag recoil. An AR has less than 4 ft lbs of recoil. There is a reason shotguns have largely been replaced by police and military personel with AR's.
 
Interesting. I would expect the AR to be the easiest for a duffer to shoot -- 4 points of body contact, like any long gun, light and low recoil.

Shotguns are tough for beginners, especially with SD loads -- heavy recoil. One can learn to manage, but it takes practice.

Handguns are the toughest guns to shoot well. In the Basic Handgun class we teach, we get our students shooting pretty well. But we also spend probably about a third of the 10 hour class on marksmanship (including the live fire period) plus another 1 to 2 hours on "hands-on" gun familiarization.
 
Results are unsurprising for a new shooter. Handguns are difficult to shoot accurately absent significant training and practice. 12 ga pump shotguns are problematic for small-framed folks due to recoil. A 20 ga semiauto might give very different results. Carbines offer more controllability and accuracy with little recoil. That's the very reason the M1 carbine was developed early in WWII - personal defense arm, preferable to the 1911 .45 ACP. AR design is good, Ruger Mini-14, and Beretta CX4 Storm also, as well as now-discontinued pistol caliber carbines from Ruger and Marlin. I personally have no experience w. High Point or Kel Tec carbines, but doubt they are of the quality of a decent AR, Ruger, or Beretta. You usually get what you pay for.
 
One thing I did notice about the AR is that she clearly didn't understand height over bore issues at that distance. While her accuracy was better, all of her hits were lower compared to previous targets. Of course, that is common for a novice and easy to correct.
 
Interesting, but I still would not recommed an AR as a general HD gun. Yeah, I'd still go to a handgun or shotgun but an appropriate-sized one (maybe not .357 or 12 ga.), 10 more minutes of instruction, and obviously with a holo-site.
:rolleyes:
 
Having trained with both and comfortable with them. I really don't see the advantage of a shotgun over an AR.

Racking sound - stupid
Don't have to aim - not true
Stopping power - no difference
Penetration - mythology with modern 223 rounds
Ease of use, clearance, capacity, ease of reloading - AR

Macho - Shotgun

I certainly would pick up my shotgun if I needed it but I'd pick up the AR first.
 
I am wondering about something. How would she have done with the AR without the red dot? Conversely how would she have done with a handgun or a shotgun with a red dot?

Seems biased that one firearm had a red dot while the others did not.
 
I got shotgun, pistol, revolver, and a semi auto 223(mini), so I guess I'm covered.

And to think about it,of the long arm choices, an AR could be employed the fastest. Not as fast as a pistol or revolver.
 
My impressions:

Target appears to be over 30 feet away. My house, which is 3500sf only has one open space that is over 30' wall to wall. 30' ranges in a home are unusual. Target should have been placed at 10' 15' to simulate a home defense situation.

Wide open space - no walls, no doors, no furniture, no obstacles to navigate around or for perps to hide behind. Rifles are great for outdoors use - proves nothing about home defense use, however.

It's daytime in the video - most home invasions are going to be at night - you might need a free hand to turn on lights, find your cell phone, hold a flashlight, open doors, etc. Rifles, even carbines are two-handed instruments for most untrained people.

Do you really think someone who is unfamiliar with AR's is going to keep a round chambered and the AR in a convenient location for home defense? Probably not. So, she's going to have to chamber a round before the AR becomes anything more than an awkward stick. I'd like to time how long that takes her - watch the video again, she doesn't even chamber a round - done prior to the video! On the other hand, a DA/SA handgun is good to go as soon as you pick it up.

How many people carry their AR's to answer the door? How many people carry a concealable handgun when answering the door?

I could go on and on, but IMHO, a good handgun beats a rifle or shotgun for HD.
 
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Clearly, there are multiple considerations when choosing a home defense firearm or we would all choose the same one. However an important consideration is the ability to put lead on target. This video compares how a novice does at that task with each of three different firearms. If you can't put lead on target, the fact that you were able to dial 911 with your free hand may not be much comfort.

Skans said:
Target should have been placed at 10' 15' to simulate a home defense situation.
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I believe in the video they mention they had discussed how quickly the distance from the target could be covered, which makes me think they were trying to teach the novice the basics of the Tueller drill - thus the distance used.

I could go on and on, but IMHO, a good handgun beats a rifle or shotgun for HD.
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Each has its advantages, that is why I don't limit myself to choosing just one. ;)

Glenn E. Meyer said:
I really don't see the advantage of a shotgun over an AR.
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I don't know if you are familiar with Hitchman's Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon; but it is an interesting study that lead to Project SALVO and ultimately the M16 family of weapons. One interesting part of the study was its conclusion that multiple near-instantaneous hits with a certain dispersion represented the best chance of an immediate stop. Much of the remainder of the study revolves around how to do that in an infantry setting; but if you change it to home defense, a shotgun pops to mind when they are discussing the number of hits and dispersion desired.
 
Well, if it were allowed - a full auto AR or similar gun with a 3 round burst setting is ideal - if I recall that argument.

One can set the cyclic rate of the gun such that the three round burst would be so quick that recoil rise wouldn't be that great. It was because of studies like the one mentioned.

So let's change the NFA laws!
 
So let's change the NFA laws
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!

Amen to that! If my AC556 were worth what my Glock 17 is worth, it would very quickly take its place as my HD weapon of choice.....forget what I said above about handguns!:D
 
Sorry, I just don't see a high-powered infantry semi-auto "assault" rifle, even in a tacticool carbine configuration, as superior over a HD shotgun. That's what I'd use for, say, highly accurate fire at distant targets. Close in? Yeah, it'd be last actually. Pistol fills my hand first. Shotgun when I'm increasing my one-shot stop capability.

Been this way since the country was founded for a reason...

"...I marched on until I was within some thirty yards of the enemy, who as soon as they caught sight of me halted and gazed at me and I at them. When I saw them make a move to draw their bows upon us, I took aim with my arquebus and shot straight at one of the three chiefs, and with this shot two fell to the ground and one of their companions was wounded who died thereof a little later. I had put four bullets into my arquebus. As soon as our people saw this shot so favourable for them, they began to shout so loudly that one could not have heard it thunder..."
-Champlain, 1609 Iroquis War
 
Around here, the beat cops have gone to AR15s as their car long guns. Shotguns now wear bright orange stocks and are exclusively for less lethal munitions.
 
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