An Expert Says No to Laser Sights

K

KMO

New member
I came across a pistol holster being sold on ebay, and apparently the seller had been asked a number of times by potential buyers if this particular holster would work with a pistol equipped with a laser sight. As it turns out, the seller was a certified instructor of many years, and he offered some interesting commentary on the practical usefulness of laser sights. Check it out...

I keep getting E Mail questions about laser sights and if I make a holster for them. The answer is no. When I first started teaching I put laser sights on all my range pistols and had a 100 or so people try them out. It did not take long to see these things for self defense are a joke. In every case 100% of the time the students scores went up when they did not use the laser. I did some testing in my home at night and that convinced me to take them off all my pistols. In a near totally dark room if you turn on a laser it will light up that room and make you a sitting duck. Now for the facts. If you have the sun in your eyes you cannot see the dot. If the subject is standing in bright light and has dark clothing you cannot see the dot. If you are in a dark room or under ground parking and or covered parking at sundown and they fire first you are blinded and cannot see the dot. Now for the final and most important part. When your heart beats get to around 120 Beats per minute and the adrenaline is flowing and the body goes into the flight or fight mode the first thing your body will do is switch you to tunnel vision and I guarantee you that you will not see the dot nor will you have the presence of mind to do so. I have talked to too many people that have been in that situation including myself and all the stories are the same. Please don’t take my word for it but do some research for yourself. Read books by the experts. One to start with is ON COMBAT by Grossman, then go on from there. Attend a point shooting class and talk to an instructor. I have always said that if I ever have to use my hand gun I hope the other person is using a Laser. I am not saying there is not a place for the laser as there well may be but not in this case. Technology cannot substitute for expertise.
 
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This person claims that when the environment is very dark or very bright and the shooter is high on adrenaline, he/she can't see the dot, and therefore laser sights are worthless. How is this any different than being unable to see the iron sights in many of these situations, especially considering the well-documented tendency of many people to neglect the sights altogether because of a perceived need to fire sooner? Should we therefore remove the iron sights from our pistols too?

Yes, the laser provides a way for the shooter's opponent to focus on the shooter, but OTOH it may cause the opponent to be dazzled and disoriented. The opponent is involved in a gunfight too and may presumably make many of the same perception-oriented mistakes as the other party.

A laser is a tool. It's not a magic bullet, but that doesn't make it useless either.

It sounds like this self-proclaimed "expert" has an axe to grind. :rolleyes:

MODS: Suggest moving this to "Tactics & Training."
 
When I see a study in Human Factors or Military Psychology, etc. that evaluates their use in controlled simulations, then I'll have a better view than anecdotal speculations.

I should search for such. Maybe later.
 
There are many inconsistencies in the statement by the holster seller, like the ones revealed by carguychris. I would not base any decision for or against a laser sight on a testimonial like the one posted.
 
For the record, I am neither a laser sight critic or advocate. I just thought the instructor's remarks and experience were noteworthy...
 
Wow.

That guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about....


If the OTHER guy fires at you, you're going to be blinded by the muzzle flash? Seriously? What's he shooting at you? An M1 tank?

Holy smokes. What a maroon!
 
I have to question the motives of the so called expert. I don't know his background but I totally disagree with his opinions on laser sights. Maybe its because his holsters wont work with lasers.

I don't know what's considered a "long time certified instructor", but I've been a certified LE instructor since the 70s. I've been in some conditions where the laser would have been a great asset if I'd had it then.

First I'll concur with the other response. The laser isn't an end all to shooting, but its a tool. It doesn't replace the sights on a pistol/revolver, it supplements them.

Lets look at some of the benefits of the laser. We all know, that one of the best tools for shooting, either competitive or SD is "dry firing". We can dry fire all day long and not really know where the barrel is pointed after the hammer falls................until we dry fire with the laser. That little dot does not lie. If if wiggles off your mark (target) so will your bullet impact if you were shooting. You only have to dry fire with the laser to see this. Then you can see what you have to do to control the dot, and keep it on target.

An example, we know that to correct your impact, you push (or pull) your finger toward the direction you want your bullet to impact. If you are shooting right, you push your finger deeper into the trigger guard. If you are hitting left, you pull your finger out. But you can't tell by dry firing. Unless you have the laser. You can see what you are doing wrong and correct it.

Like I said you cannot appreciate the benefits of the laser in dry firing until you try it.

As for shooting itself. It works the same way, You can see what's happening. Granted the laser doesn't work in bright sun light. But you still have your sights. In poor light conditions its hard to see your sights, but you can see that red dot.

I do most of my shooting in the daylight, with a bright sun (Wyoming is like that). I've noticed when I start to get sloppy, I go back to dry firing (with the laser), then wait until evening, and play with the laser, then my bright light sight shooting improves. Never fails.

Lets look at self defense: We all read the papers, watch the news, etc. not many SD shooting situations occur in bright sunny conditions. Its normally night, low light, or in buildings, homes, etc. The laser works in these conditions. If on the rare occasions where it may be in bright light conditions, you still have your sights.

Another concern with lasers is there is the concern that the battery may fail. Again, you have your sights. But those batteries do last a long time. I've shoot quite a bit and never had a battery fail. But the simple answer to that fear is to change your battery often. They are cheap, set up a program where you change your battery when you change the batteries in your smoke detector, twice a year when you change your clocks.

Many years ago when I was a young scared kid I was task (because I was small) to crawl down some dark muddy tunnels after bad guys with nothing but a 1911a1 and a red lens flash light, often with dimming BA30s. The first thing that came to mind when I first used a laser sight was WHY DIDN'T I HAVE ONE BACK THEN.

No sir, I question the people who condemn laser sights, have every used them.

If nothing else, the use of lasers in dry firing is worth the price.

I guess if I was selling holsters that didn't allow laser sighted pistol/revolvers I may be against them also. But I'm a coach/instructor, I don't sell anything. I know they work.

Having said all that, now they have Green Lasers. I haven't used them, but I've read they work in bright lights. I am gonna have to try them. Maybe someone who has used the green lasers will chime in.
 
If the author had really read Grossman and other studies of the physiological aspects of deadly force encounters, he would know that as the heart rate accelerates past 132 bpm, you lose the ability to focus on close objects. Combine this with the fact that your attention will, naturally, be focused on the threat, and you'll find that point shooting skills are the best means of surviving the situation.

While I agree that lasers aren't a panacea, and have limited if any value in well lit scenarios, the laser dot does appear where the eyes are focused -- on the threat, when the weapon is properly aligned.

Color me cynical, but it seems to me that the author chooses to disparage lasers because he's too lazy to modify his holster patterns to accommodate laser-equipped firearms. :rolleyes:
 
Technology cannot substitute for expertise.
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I don't think I've ever said that a lazer is a substitute for expertise, practice, or anything else.

Lazers are an aid that can help under some circumstances; nothing more, nothing less. If there's enough light to see the iron sights, that's what I use. If not, then a lazer (if I have one on the gun I'm carrying) can help.

I can also point shoot pretty accurately. Lazers are great practice aids for point shooting, btw.

As far as being a "sitting duck" when a lazer is turned on? That's why I like CT lazergrips. The lazer is only on for maybe a half second or less before I shoot. I practice actual shooting with the lazer the same way.

Not to downplay this guy's experience, but I've experiences of my own, and I disagree with him.

Daryl
 
Must be nice to live in a world where everyone has perfect eyesight.

Laser sights on her compact handguns have boosted my wife's accuracy and confidence.

"Experts" can kma, not hers, but mine. :D
 
I can't go along with the eBay expert either.

A few years ago, I was at Gunsite for a rifle class. But most of the instructors were sporting Crimson Trace Laser Grips on their sidearms. So I spent some time talking with several about them. The story as I recall was as follows:

[1] The Gunsite instructional staff was in the process of evaluating the use of lasers on self defense guns.

[2] For someone well trained and practiced in the use of a flash sight picture, a laser was a little slower.

[3] A laser will not take the place of basic marksmanship skills, i. e., trigger control. If one jerks on the trigger, he will miss whether using a laser or any other method of indexing on the target.

[4] But a laser is definitely useful in situations in which one can not readily index on the target in other ways, e. g., shooting from behind cover or unconventional positions in which one can't get a sight picture.

[5] So they have their uses.

Personally, I'm more inclined to pay attention to the opinions of instructors at Gunsite than some fellow on eBay.
 
Okay, that does it. No more laser sights on Cols, Ohio PD Swat teams weapons nor Franklin Co Sheriff's Dept. Swat weapons. :rolleyes::D.

Granted, lasers should never take the place of iron sights but they can be a very valuable tool in SD and training purpose's in many ways.

I've never heard anyone make reference that 'one should rely soley on laser's'.

As far as laser's and point shooting goes, laser's can be very effective in the training of one's hand-eye coordination among other things.

Instructor is entitled to his/her opinion but I know other instructors that would strongly disagree with his overall thoughts.
 
Not to steer the thread elsewhere, but IMHO laser sights are about as useful as iron sights in an time-constrained bang/bang emergency situation (no pun intended). I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to how to interpret that.

Under those conditions, like sights, they can be used as a tool to train your muscle memory for instinctive point shooting. I would have no problem relying on them for target shooting in competitions where they are permitted.
 
There are so many gadgets and techniques on the market, most of which are useful some of the time, do you use all, get some, learn to live (or die?) without, or what? I've shot in the dark, no-light, low-light, with a hand-held white light, both with and without night sights, etc. I can see some value in everything, both in the way of gear and techniques, but do you try to apply everything (two or three different flashlight techniques, for instance), or do you pick one thing and try to be very good at that? Most people don't have the time or money to train constantly, to learn multiple techniques well enough to choose among them AFTER they're needed.
 
I could see how a laser might be useful on a home defense gun where you are looking for the intruders and have some time to think and react. But, for carry purposes, I think what the certified instructor said was dead-on correct. Couldn't have said it better.

When having to defend yourself while carrying, distances are going to be very short, reaction time will be critical - you'll be lucky just to be able to skillfully unholster the gun, point it at the BG(s) and fire.
 
Thats just one "expert", heck wasn't too long ago that the medical experts said that tobacco was GOOD for you! I'll use my own judgement on what works for me thanks.;)
 
The instructor mentioned in the OP has much more intelligence on the matter of laser sights tham most of the Tech-world junkies that says he doen't know what he is talking about.
Laser sights have their place. As an aid in teaching instinctive shooting. Other than that, way to many things can go wrong. Dead batteries, bright light, operator error, and mechanical, or in this case electronic failure. Use them as an aid in shooting. As a toy to impress your friends that watch all the same action films you do. But learn to shoot, and don't rely on them. JMHO
 
way to many things can go wrong. Dead batteries, bright light, operator error, and mechanical, or in this case electronic failure.
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And that prevents one from using the pistol/revolvers sights HOW?

No one said anything about grinding off the sights because you have lasers.

A couple other items: Most shooting in homes involve low light. Not no light but low light. I've done a heck of a lot of building searches in my time, very seldom do you run across pure darkness. Low light does make it difficult to use sights, but Lasers work.

Point shooting has its place. The laser sight doesn't eliminate that "place". How ever, extended ranges Point shooting doesn't work. I can use a laser on my 642 at 50 yards quite reliably.

Again no one is saying the laser sight replaces the sight or replaces point shooting. It's another tool. Would you call a flashlight a gimmick? It would be idiotic to say the taser useless and has no place on pistols/revolvers.
 
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