I will look onto them. I just bought a Ruger 10/22 Deluxe with walnut manlicher stock a few weeks ago. I was willing to pay extra for the nice stock but I was disappointed to find that the scope mount holes were drilled slightly to the right side of the reciever. Since the receiver is curved on top this makes the scope mount crooked and to the right side. Very disappointing. I am looking now for another quality 22 that I can be proud to own and shoot like I hate it.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
American Gun makers going down hill
- Thread starter Don P
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
gaseousclay
New member
gaseousclay--I agree 100% with that. It is basically the point i was making.I am part of that group. Don't you dare take my Vacation,Health Ins,Sick Leave,Bonuses,401,Retierment,Christmas Parties,Ect,Ect away from me. I deserve them---Right??..We have been raised that way and now unfortunatly it is in our blood stream and we feel we deserve all this. This is why American Products cost so much,It's not that they are better,it's just that you have to pay my wage and my benny's. One has to wonder,If a total crash of the markets and economy would really be that bad,or would it in the long run put us in our place. What would it be like if this world(us) had to fend for ourselfs. I for one would die, I don't hunt,I don't fish any more. And what is this thing called walking. Shoot me now and get it over with
I don't work for a union but I do believe that workers should be able to have a decent standard of living. what i'm seeing is that the people that are the most vocal against unions are the ones who don't have a 401k, or health insurance, bonuses, etc. there's a reason why unions have these perks, it's because they fight for them. if they didn't they'd get nothing. I'm fortunate to have these perks with my job but and I feel lucky to have them. but what I won't do is make unions out to be the bad guy when we all know it's the head honchos at the top who are to blame imo
but without unions none of us would enjoy our weekends or child labor laws or a lot of other things we take for granted.
That's a bunch of crap. I'm 49 years old. I've only belonged to one union back when I was teaching at Rogers State College in Claremore. It was "the rules" that I had to join the union and pay dues. I fussed and complained that I hated everything to do with unions and that I had no desire for any of my money to go to them but "those were the rules."
Only 11.9% of the US workforce is represented in unions. Somehow the other nearly 90% of us manage to "get by" without them. I agree that unions were an important part of our history. But that was the 1920's and 30's. It's very, very hard for me to believe that somehow all job benefits would "go away" if every union in the US disappeared tomorrow. I guess 11.9% of you would have to learn to think for yourself but the rest of us have been doing it since we got our first jobs.
And I always find it ironic to see strong union support on gun boards. You give money out of your paycheck every month to your union and they turn around and use it to support Democrats. Not my money. I quit teaching and I quit the idiotic teachers' union. I wouldn't take a job today if I had to join a union to get it.
I guess we all saw the TV news thing where they were going around and asking people to produce something "American made?" Nobody asked me. I do own some foreign made guns but there are a heck of a lot of US made ones in my house. Rugers and Colts and S&W's and Winchesters and Remingtons, etc, etc, etc. Most of the people on the TV literally couldn't find one thing that said Made in the US. They should have asked some gun people!
Gregg
The majority of my firearms are American. Other then a huge ongoing FUBAR with an H&R I bought, I've had nothing but good experiences with them. This includes Remington, Ruger, Scorpion Arms/PTR91, Wiselite, Rock River, Smith and Wesson and a few others. The next thing I must have is a Savage 220 - and I'll buy it with confidence.
That's a bunch of crap
http://civilrightsandwrongs.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/history-of-child-labor-laws-in-the-u-s/
http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html
http://208.106.244.178/pdfs/Part%20II-B-Child%20Labor%20in%20US%20History.pdf
It's not crap. It's true. Most folks have negative views on Worker's Unions but know nothing about them. No disrespect meant but I belong to a Union and am proud of it.
As someone not in your country I find it really amazing and somewhat scary how much big business has control of your politicians and political system. You cant tell me if a large corporation makes a large political donation they wont expect and get something for it in return. I am also surprised how many Americans are against government health care, the thought you may not get treatment for a life threating condition because you don't have enough money IMO is just wrong.
In regards to Remington I think you will probably find since being taken over in June 07 most of the long term workers there left because the new owners would have restructured the company, probably pay less and have taken away benefits ect so now they cant get and wont pay for skilled workers ect all while paying there CEO and board members obscene amounts of money, meanwhile the people who make them the money (the workers) get screwed. I have seen it happen all before when a company gets taken over some idiot who has no idea how the company works thinks he can do things better because in his mind he's smarter then everyone else. Meanwhile a company that has always be a quality, stand up company does stuff to **** off there loyal customers so more corners get cut because sales are slowing and it goes round in a vicious circle.
In regards to Remington I think you will probably find since being taken over in June 07 most of the long term workers there left because the new owners would have restructured the company, probably pay less and have taken away benefits ect so now they cant get and wont pay for skilled workers ect all while paying there CEO and board members obscene amounts of money, meanwhile the people who make them the money (the workers) get screwed. I have seen it happen all before when a company gets taken over some idiot who has no idea how the company works thinks he can do things better because in his mind he's smarter then everyone else. Meanwhile a company that has always be a quality, stand up company does stuff to **** off there loyal customers so more corners get cut because sales are slowing and it goes round in a vicious circle.
gaseousclay
New member
And I always find it ironic to see strong union support on gun boards. You give money out of your paycheck every month to your union and they turn around and use it to support Democrats. Not my money. I quit teaching and I quit the idiotic teachers' union. I wouldn't take a job today if I had to join a union to get it.
unions support Democrats because Democrats support unions. I can't say the same for Republicans. look at what's happening in Wisconsin and several other states around the country - Scott Walker wants to eliminate collective bargaining and strip union workers of their rights, including teachers. here's a news flash, without these workers you wouldn't have anyone to tend to you at the hospital, or teach your kids, or put out a fire, or police the neighborhood, or pick up your garbage.
I'd re-think the overpaid American Worker bit. Why are American workers always compared to the cheapest labor (China) on the planet? Germany has become the world's 3rd largest economy and they pay pretty good. Someone told me New Brunswick is the poorest province in Canada but the mean wage there is 48,000/yr (although the tax is supposed to be 50%).
I know that my Uncle came home from WWII and worked his whole life on a loading dock and owned a home, a fish camp, one car for the family, and his wife never worked. Actually I had another uncle who was pretty simlar except he was an enlisted man. No subsidies, no food stamps, etc.
Today a young guy working on a loading dock- can't afford a home, can't afford a fish camp on a lake, and his wife has to work to pay all the bills.
Today our economy is in the dumps but back when my uncles were working- we had a booming ecomony. Something seems amiss.
One thing, today (and I'm as guilty as the next guy) we buy a lot of junk we don't need. Years ago you saved up and got just a few things but they were of high quality. I think our buying habits have helped those that turn out a lot of cheap product (like China). The other thing, a lot of companies years ago had a certain pride- they didn't want to sell junk, but, what can they do today? They either switch to making affordable junk or they don't sell anything because their prices are too high and they go broke.
Hard problem to solve, that's for sure.
I know that my Uncle came home from WWII and worked his whole life on a loading dock and owned a home, a fish camp, one car for the family, and his wife never worked. Actually I had another uncle who was pretty simlar except he was an enlisted man. No subsidies, no food stamps, etc.
Today a young guy working on a loading dock- can't afford a home, can't afford a fish camp on a lake, and his wife has to work to pay all the bills.
Today our economy is in the dumps but back when my uncles were working- we had a booming ecomony. Something seems amiss.
One thing, today (and I'm as guilty as the next guy) we buy a lot of junk we don't need. Years ago you saved up and got just a few things but they were of high quality. I think our buying habits have helped those that turn out a lot of cheap product (like China). The other thing, a lot of companies years ago had a certain pride- they didn't want to sell junk, but, what can they do today? They either switch to making affordable junk or they don't sell anything because their prices are too high and they go broke.
Hard problem to solve, that's for sure.
gaseousclay
New member
Today our economy is in the dumps but back when my uncles were working- we had a booming ecomony. Something seems amiss.
One thing, today (and I'm as guilty as the next guy) we buy a lot of junk we don't need. Years ago you saved up and got just a few things but they were of high quality. I think our buying habits have helped those that turn out a lot of cheap product (like China).
this is what I mean when I say we live in a throwaway society. we want product to be sold as cheaply as possible, and when that product falls apart in 6 months we whine about it. In an ideal world firearms would be more affordable and they'd last a life-time, unfortunately, this isn't the case with some companies. it bothers me that companies like Remington would produce an inferior product without thinking of the consequences. I think this is why companies like Browning, Winchester, Weatherby, Leupold and others are probably thriving. they make quality products and stand behind them
Somehow I think it not a one issue problem.
I spent most of my working life in manufacturing.I have never joined a union.
I spent 27 years in a non-union company.I went frrom shop gopher to "senior engineering machinist" with OJT. This company sent me to understudy a master in mold polishing,multiple Pro-Engineer classes,EDM workshops,etc.They were into investing in training. They had a great education benefit.The night watchman was often a student going to school on the company dime.
At the time I was laid off,late 90's,I was making $24 an hour,plus 4 wks paid vacation,then personal days,sick pay,10 paid holidays,401k,health,dental,glasses.Today,I draw a significant pension from them.Non-union.This company managed things in a way of feeding back to us what they could,while maintaining a sound business strategy.Sustainability,long term employment.What happened? They put plenty of money in the pension plan to take care of the future.A steel company that was underfunded in their pension plan bought our company for the pension fund.Steel companies have very little interest in the consumer products we manufactured.Now,those jobs are in China.
So,how is the steel industry in this country doingGreed works both ways,the coercive greed of unions can be unsustainable.
I have a brother who builds infrastructure.His history was non-union,and extremely productive.He won a lot of awards from the state for quality and productivity.He was transferred to a union environment.No longer was pride in getting the work done present in the crews of union workers he was assigned.It was more about what can we do to shut down early on Friday.
Manufacturing has changed.I doubt most firearms companies make the majority of their parts in house.They are farmed out.As the contract specifies "good parts" the suppliers are held responsible for QC.Incoming parts from qualified vendors are not typically QC'd.Tracability is maintained through lot numbers,and problem parts are pulled from the system.Thats how recalls occur.
Trends such as ISO 9000 require each part and assembly is produced per documentation of tools and processs.The idea is the quality of the product is no longer about old Hanz and his files,or Irma at the checkering bench,and their 30 yrs experience.
Operator A gets X training and is assigned to workstation Z,and his work is expected to fall within control limits .Throw in a fine piece of figured walnut and this system has problems.
I build my own
I spent most of my working life in manufacturing.I have never joined a union.
I spent 27 years in a non-union company.I went frrom shop gopher to "senior engineering machinist" with OJT. This company sent me to understudy a master in mold polishing,multiple Pro-Engineer classes,EDM workshops,etc.They were into investing in training. They had a great education benefit.The night watchman was often a student going to school on the company dime.
At the time I was laid off,late 90's,I was making $24 an hour,plus 4 wks paid vacation,then personal days,sick pay,10 paid holidays,401k,health,dental,glasses.Today,I draw a significant pension from them.Non-union.This company managed things in a way of feeding back to us what they could,while maintaining a sound business strategy.Sustainability,long term employment.What happened? They put plenty of money in the pension plan to take care of the future.A steel company that was underfunded in their pension plan bought our company for the pension fund.Steel companies have very little interest in the consumer products we manufactured.Now,those jobs are in China.
So,how is the steel industry in this country doingGreed works both ways,the coercive greed of unions can be unsustainable.
I have a brother who builds infrastructure.His history was non-union,and extremely productive.He won a lot of awards from the state for quality and productivity.He was transferred to a union environment.No longer was pride in getting the work done present in the crews of union workers he was assigned.It was more about what can we do to shut down early on Friday.
Manufacturing has changed.I doubt most firearms companies make the majority of their parts in house.They are farmed out.As the contract specifies "good parts" the suppliers are held responsible for QC.Incoming parts from qualified vendors are not typically QC'd.Tracability is maintained through lot numbers,and problem parts are pulled from the system.Thats how recalls occur.
Trends such as ISO 9000 require each part and assembly is produced per documentation of tools and processs.The idea is the quality of the product is no longer about old Hanz and his files,or Irma at the checkering bench,and their 30 yrs experience.
Operator A gets X training and is assigned to workstation Z,and his work is expected to fall within control limits .Throw in a fine piece of figured walnut and this system has problems.
I build my own
Yes, 80% of us (10% have no job) get by without a union but 90% of us would like to do better than just get by. Wouldn't you?
I used to think poorly of Wal-Mart and mostly I still do. But then I realized that people have been complaining about similiar companies since Sears started sending out their catalogs, though not without good reason. Everything said about Wal-Mart is pretty much true and largely the same things were true about Sears when Sears was Sears and so were Montgomery Ward and all the discount stores that started appearing after the war. In Wal-Mart's case, I'd have to say they have become meaner (there's no other word for it) since Sam Walton passed away. But, no one is forced to work there or to shop there, provided you have the bus fare out of town.
I used to think poorly of Wal-Mart and mostly I still do. But then I realized that people have been complaining about similiar companies since Sears started sending out their catalogs, though not without good reason. Everything said about Wal-Mart is pretty much true and largely the same things were true about Sears when Sears was Sears and so were Montgomery Ward and all the discount stores that started appearing after the war. In Wal-Mart's case, I'd have to say they have become meaner (there's no other word for it) since Sam Walton passed away. But, no one is forced to work there or to shop there, provided you have the bus fare out of town.
bighead46
I'd re-think the overpaid American Worker bit. Why are American workers always compared to the cheapest labor (China) on the planet? Germany has become the world's 3rd largest economy and they pay pretty good.....
... The other thing, a lot of companies years ago had a certain pride- they didn't want to sell junk, but, what can they do today? They either switch to making affordable junk or they don't sell anything because their prices are too high and they go broke.
Germany is doing well since they have very strong exports, last year that tiny country where I was born exported more than China.
The companies that produce top-quality firearms in Europe have also fallen on dire times, Korth closed the doors in 2008 and Hämmerli and Walther are now just brandnames owned by Umarex - and they produce cheaply made guns and do not take the same pride in their workmanship as it was done- by Hämmerli in Switzerland whose name was synonymous with top quality.
zombieslayer
New member
I'm glad to work where we don't have many unions. I'm a steel fabricator and I get all kinds of benefits. Without haviong a union. Guys in Detroit want $80 an hour to stamp out car parts. I buy my cars and my guns foreign more than domestic.I seem to get better return on foreign products for my money.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I think we've wandered a fair ways away from Marlin...
- Status
- Not open for further replies.