Aluminum Guns

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yrralguthrie

New member
I read much about the new lightweight aluminum 1911 pistols. Mostly by someone that doesn't trust the strength of the frames or slides.

Is there anyone on line that has first hand experience with a cracked aluminum on a 1911? I'm not asking about hearsay or second or third party. Not talking about seeing a cracked frame of someone else. I mean have you cracked a frame or actually seen one cracking while being used by someone else.

The reason I ask, I looked up the hardness for aluminum and it varies from Brinel 20 to Brinel 150 Rockwell B89 in alloy 7075. The hardness of stainless steel is 187 and many steel alloys are also in that range. Some of course are much harder. Keeping in mind that a frame or slide that is too hard would be easier to crack than one that was too soft.

I don't have any idea the alloy various manufacturers use in their guns, but I would think they could develop ways to further harden aluminum. A couple other alloys are in the 120 Brinel range. 7075 tensile and bending strength is about the same as most mild steels. 7075 aluminum is at least 80% of the hardness of stainless steel.

To my mind the strength and hardness of aluminum cannot be an issue. Does it have undue wear? Wear would be dependent on the surface treatment. Again that is proprietary.

In addition to my initial question, are there any opinions out there? Other than "I wouldn't buy or use an aluminum gun" with no valid qualifiers. Do you have an aluminum gun that is showing wear on the slide?

ljg
 
It may not be a practical limitation in this application, but my understanding is that alumininum is more subject to fatigue under stresses than steel, and so more likely to fail over time, even if the initial strength is equivalent.
 
I've had an aluminum frame Springfield Armory for fifteen years and shot tens of thousands of rounds through it without any problems.
 
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I've had an older Sig 220 for a while, with about 1000 downrange by my own hand. So far the top rail is seeing a little wear, some of the anodizing/coating is wearing off but I keep it lubed and don't worry about it.
 
7075 is a great grade of alloy, but I think most gun makers are using T6 6061 grade, still a very good aluminum.

Done correctly, 6061 aluminum should not crack and hold up for many thousands of rounds.

yrralguthrie said:
Do you have an aluminum gun that is showing wear on the slide?
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I have a Ruger P90, check back with me in about another 100 years.:D

Ok, a little more serious answer. If you buy any good brand that uses alloy frame you should be OK.
 
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Aluminum Fatigue

Aluminum does fatigue, especially under bending stresses. However the B-52 has been flying for something like 50 years and is expected to fly until at least 2030. If someone shoots a aluminum frame gun for 80 years with anything like the stress put on a typical B-52, it may fail.

ljg
 
I don't think you will likely ever shoot enough to actually wear out the aluminum 1911 frame. If you do, then you will have to spend many times the cost of the pistol in ammo to do so.

It is true, aluminum is not as strong as steal. However, when it comes to handgun frames, it's unlikely that you will ever see that difference. Colt has been making aluminum framed 1911's since the 1950's, and they have help up just fine. Today, just about all of the non-1911 metal framed semi-autos use aluminum frames.

If you are planning on shooting thousands and thousands of rounds every year then you should go with a steel framed gun. If you are doing that much shooting then you will probably prefer the weight of the steel frame for absorbing recoil. However, if you are looking for a carry gun and don't plan on shooting the absolute snot out of it, then an aluminum frame would be just fine.
 
However the B-52 has been flying for something like 50 years and is expected to fly until at least 2030. If someone shoots a aluminum frame gun for 80 years with anything like the stress put on a typical B-52, it may fail.
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The aircraft designation has been flying for many decades. The actual airframes in service have not logged that much time. Not to mention - almost all of them have been partially, or fully reskinned - along with all kinds of other airframe modifications. Any high-stress parts are changed on a time-change interval, as well (whether calendar based, or flight-hour based).

The B-52s we have today are absolutely not the B-52s of 1955.

They may only see heavy maintenance (depot level) every 5 to 10 years, but the aircraft looks like a jigsaw puzzle while it's being repaired.


Aircraft are a poor reference for firearm metallurgy. It's a different world - one that is in a constant state of maintenance and repair.

In 2007, I retired a helicopter that was reported to have been engaged in a rather high profile incident in SE Asia in the early '70s. But... it was a bit of a sham. There were 4 small aluminum structures in a 32" by 46" area of the helicopter that were original. Every other piece of that aircraft had been replaced during its service life. Sure, they called it by the same tail number.... but it was like calling Tom Selleck, "Brad Pitt" because Mr. Pitt gave Selleck a few red blood cells.
 
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Is there anyone on line that has first hand experience with a cracked aluminum on a 1911? I'm not asking about hearsay or second or third party. Not talking about seeing a cracked frame of someone else.
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Well, an excellent smithie I know has first hand experience and I asked him the same question, and I'd call it very accurate second hand.

A Colt commander could easily go 20,000 rds. But, as Col. Cooper pointed out, it's a gun designed to be carried a lot and shot little. You can still practice with it, as I do with my Kimber Pro CDP2, but I limit the ammo I put thru it.

It's not just the frame, but also the anodized frame ramp that should be treated with a little care, so practice ammo selection might be important. Mine likes lead swc's just fine.


Bottom line: The alloy frame1911 is a CARRY gun.
 
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I own five aluminum framed pistols (SIG P6, P220, P226, CZ40b and S&W M910). My P220 and P226 were manufactured in west german 1980's and they have high round counts (10,000+). Both show zero signs of fatigue or wear.
 
I own five aluminum framed pistols (SIG P6, P220, P226, CZ40b and S&W M910). My P220 and P226 were manufactured in west german 1980's and they have high round counts (10,000+). Both show zero signs of fatigue or wear
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My experience, also. Some parts of the rails may be subject to galling, but this seems normal with the Sig.


The Sig Sauer pistol is a different animal than the 1911 alloy frame with it's anodized aluminum feed ramp located on the frame. The SIG has steel feed ramps located on the locking block and bbl. Only the frame rails are anodized on the SIG. Below is an excellent article from Bruce Grays' site on inspecting the Sig for signs of wear, and also for proper lubrication of the Sig frame rails, which will last just about for ever if properly lubed.

I think some of this can be applied to the alloy framed 1911, also.


http://grayguns.com/guide-to-sig-sauer-pistol-inspection/

http://grayguns.com/lubrication-of-sig-sauer-pistol-rails/

Didn't mean to change the subject. Alloy pistols work very well, and that includes the 1911's. Just be careful with the feed ramp. If it starts to look like an orange peel, that doesn't mean it won't feed reliably. But with the anodized finish, you can't just polish out the marks and shine it up like you can with a steel frame.:cool:
 
Nnobby45 thanks for the Grey articles. I have used grease on all of my aluminum framed pistols for years. My favorite part of the lubrication article is this :
I’ve had a couple of cops bring me their duty pistols for work and I’ve been astonished at what I’ve found. When I cocked the hammer of one of them, I found three pieces off bitten of finger nail and a corner of plastic from a plastic ketchup packet….I mean *** MAN! Clean your freaking gun.
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In addition to my initial question, are there any opinions out there? Other than "I wouldn't buy or use an aluminum gun" with no valid qualifiers. Do you have an aluminum gun that is showing wear on the slide?
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I will say that I don't care much for aluminum frame guns. I've only had one problem with an aluminum frame pistol - Taurus PT-99. It was a steel part that broke - locking block, but in trying to get the gun apart, it gouged up the soft aluminum frame rails pretty badly.

When you hear gun makers talke about the hardness of their aluminum - they are usually talking about the surface treatment, which can get the top few microns of aluminum pretty hard. The 99.9999% of the rest of the frame is nothing but ordinary soft aluminum.

However, to be fair, aluminum is harder than plastic, and plastic has been used very effectively in some.....SOME guns.

Personally, I prefer stainless steel over aluminum. I don't like how the coatings on aluminum wear - they tend to get scratched and show holster ware. Also, it's difficult to refinish hardened/coated aluminum.

Stainless steel is simply not that much heavier than aluminum, given that the slides, barrels, and other parts are already steel and the bullets made of lead. I think the only reason some guns choose to use aluminum frames is because its easier and cheaper to machine.

For example, I don't believe that the Rohrbaugh R9 uses an aluminum frame to save weight - that's complete BS. It uses an aluminum frame because it's easier and cheaper to machine it to the tolerances needed to make the thing work. Now, if they ever made one of these things with a stainless steel frame and rugged enough to handle 10's of thousands of rounds, I'll be interested.
 
I read much about the new lightweight aluminum 1911 pistols. Mostly by someone that doesn't trust the strength of the frames or slides.
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I assume your main interest is a 1911. If so, then I think most have answered that aluminum frame should do just fine. If you want to buy an aluminum frame pistol with no worries about wear or breaking, then just get a Ruger P series alloy frame.
 
My round count on my Colt LW Commander XSE is only at about 1500, due to this concern. I've had it for about 2 years.

I just shot it this weekend, however.

I tend to shoot my full sized steel frame Govt model more often.
 
I gave a Smith & Wesson 459 to my brother in law. I had shot it quite a bit.

Never had any problems with the gun but I worked in aerospace for over 40 years and remember the problems with the abrasiveness of aluminum. Tapping holes in aluminum is trouble waiting to happen unless you put threaded inserts in. Then you have the problem of electrolysis between steel and aluminum. Lubrication of surface to surface contact is also a problem.

While I never had a problem with the gun, I always had a point of concern that prevented me from really warming up to the gun.

Some of the same issues existed in early stainless steel guns. There were galling problem when attaching surfaces with screws of the same heat treatment. Parts would literally weld together and have to be cut apart.

Different heat treatments and better lubes have pretty much fixed guns made of stainless steel and anodizing of aluminum helps the problems associated with guns made of that material.

Having owned and used both, I prefer stainless steel even with the added weight.

I do remember a torture test of a model 59 Smith & Wesson where something like 10000 rounds were fired through the gun before there was any kind of failure of the frame. That failure was a small piece breaking off the slide rail at the rear of the gun that did not prevent the gun from operating.

YMMV

Geetarman:D
 
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