Almost drew my gun yesterday

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I would have stayed in the car and called 911. Even if you are in a Yugo you still have more protection than just standing their. Its not going to look good to a jury if you exit the safety of your car and shoot someone who you do not know is armed at 21 feet, just because he was yelling at you. I would read up on the SD laws, also you should try as hard as you can to avoid conflict when you are carrying, taking a life should be the very last resort.


It could have ended like this!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/09/two-michigan-drivers-shoot-and-kill-each-other-after-road-rage-incident/
 
The situation was escalating and you were prepared, good for you.

"you had to be there"
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We have all been in road rage incidents. Very very few require shooting anyone. Some do.


I would have felt threatened.
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The long and short of this thread is feeling threatened and actually being threatened are not the same thing. If you shot some guy because he was coming toward your friend's car to shout, you'd go to jail. He might have had a weapon doesn't cut it in most courts.

I would have shot him if he got within 21 feet
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I don't know what state allows for use of deadly force simply because someone is mad and within 7 yards. You had better read your state's laws or consult with an attorney if you are going to go around thinking you can shoot people based on their proximity.
 
...or like Vern Smalley
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-230073.html
... who was my field-grade Division Chief when I was a junior officer so long, long, ...long ago.
He was the last guy I'd ever expect to read about in such a situation.

In these days of SensationalismSellsNewsprint, do not count on the Truth will out.
Witness Florida of late.
You will a commodity...
not a righteous victim
 
"Stand your ground" laws generally remove the duty to retreat. At no point does stand your ground alleviate the requirements of self defense.

There is no cognitive dissonance, merely ignorance of the law.
 
I really don't understand some of these responses.

1. The other guy is in front of you and you have to get closer to him to get past him and away from him.

2. You are sitting IN A CAR. I don't know how many of you drive armored cars, but you are basically a sitting duck in your car. You have very little room to move and your position IN THE CAR is well known. You have practically NO COVER if the other guy were to draw a weapon and start shooting into your car.

3. If the guy walked in front of the vehicle and you approached him, he could plausibly draw a weapon and claim self-defense because you "tried to run him over". While the castle doctrine does not protect an aggressor, you may not be around to give your side of the story.

4. As for calling the cops, how long do you think this whole incident took? How fast do you think they could respond? I would call the cops and have 911 on the line as an audio witness, but what was that old saying that the cops are only minutes away when seconds count???

5. Just because you did not see a weapon does not mean he was unarmed. If you waited till he approached and then he drew, you would be way behind the reaction curve. I have drawn several times and not presented my weapon when I felt someone was highly questionable and possibly ready to attack me. I had some punk kid run right towards my open window in the middle of the night. I had my gun drawn and low ready by the time he was at my window. He claimed to be screwing around and just got kicked out of a club (this was Gainesville, FL). If it occurred in Miami, I probably would have rammed the barrel of my gun down his throat before asking politely what the "F" he wanted. There was a massive rash of car-jackings in Miami so I would not be out of line (especially late at night and running up to my car).

6. The mere action of reaching for a weapon may have diffused the situation. Maybe that hot head decided he didn't want to deal with an armed adversary.

Remember that situation in New York were a bunch of bikers got really aggressive with a SUV? One idiot brake checked the SUV (Darwin Award) and the SUV hit him. The other bikers got very hostile and the SUV hit a few of the bikes to get away. That was perfectly justified in my opinion, and in the opinion of the courts as well.

I am not going to guess someone's intentions nor their armed status if they decide to approach me in a highly aggressive manner (as described). I will avoid conflict as much as possible, but I will be ready to defend myself and move from the vehicle to gain a better position.

Oh, and by the way, no where in my post does it say I intend to shoot an unarmed person. I would draw my weapon and have it in the low ready position. I would then issue a VERY firm warning to get the F back in the car and that the police have been called. If the person continues to approach, I would point the weapon at them. In my opinion, only a psychotic person would continue to approach someone with a drawn gun. If that person continued approaching, I would seriously consider firing a warning shot at the ground.
 
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motorhead0922 said:
The last place you want to be if there is a serious threat is in a car.
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stephen426 said:
You are sitting IN A CAR. I don;t know how many of you drive armored cars, but you are basically a sitting duck in your car.
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stephen426 said:
You have practically NO COVER if the other guy were to draw a weapon and start shooting into your car.
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This is all bad advice. In this situation, being inside your car with the doors locked and the windows up is a very good place to be for the following reasons:

  • You're protected from impact weapons until they manage to breech your car. And if you have to shoot someone who manages to breech your car with an impact weapon, the damage to the car will provide evidence to the fact that they were threatening you with that weapon.

  • The car does provide some cover from gunshots, especially from the front.

  • The car provides a means of escape. Despite the OP's claims, I highly doubt he was truly boxed in. Unless the car in front of him and the car behind him were each less than 6 inches away, he could have escaped. And even then, it's not hard to push another car with your car unless you have a small car or a small engine.

  • Getting out of your car shows a desire to confront the other person, which can hurt your legal claim of self-defense.
In the Marines, I was taught to get out of a vehicle when it was hit. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s we didn't have armored Humvees or 5-tons, and the worry was that we'd get hit with rockets or other explosives. But civilians and law enforcement officers rarely have to deal with explosives, so inside a car is often the best place to be.

I have worked with a few law-enforcement instructors, and when I told them that my first instinct was to get out of my car if I'm getting shot at, they pointed out that being inside a car can be a good defensive position in a gunfight.
 
You're protected from impact weapons until they manage to breech your car. And if you have to shoot someone who manages to breech your car with an impact weapon, the damage to the car will provide evidence to the fact that they were threatening you with that weapon.


The car does provide some cover from gunshots, especially from the front.
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Not in my car. You must be assuming that everyone drives large vehicles.

My vehicle I wouldn't not be reasonably protected from impact weapons. The width of my car puts my face, and my passenger's face extremely close to the side window. The follow through from a baton, bat, crowbar, etc. hitting a window would likely strike me, especially if I have a passenger as I would not have room to lean away from my window enough to ensure safety. It actually seems safer to exit my car, because you could keep yourself on the opposite side of the vehicle as the BG. Oh did I mention the convertible top? If it's down. NO COVER, it leaves me wide open, might as well be outside, where I can move, get behind cover, or run. If it's up, it's easily plausible that a heavy impact weapon could strike someone through the canvas, or even collapse the top and possibly trap people in the car. The hardtop adds a little more security, but not much. It's fiberglass, and not very thick, and it's plausible an enraged person could break through it with a heavy impact weapon.

Cover in my car, from gunfire, even from the front would be minimal. As I've mentioned, not much space to duck, and even if I could, the car is low enough that the BG could shoot directly down at me from the front, unless he/she was standing very far from my car and/or is extremely short. The way the cockpit is designed it does not allow someone to hide effectively. The vehicle was designed to comfortably seat 2 averaged sized men and not much more. And by 'comfortably' I don't mean luxury car 'comfort' I'm talking about 'sports car comfort' which means if you're about the size of a average size Asian man, you've got room for your legs, and not much more.
Again, this is assuming you're trapped. It'd just be plain silly, to leave your vehicle, if it was possible to drive away.
 
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JD0x0 said:
Not in my car. You must be assuming that everyone drives large vehicles.
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No, I'm just assuming most people don't drive cars as small as a Mazda Miata convertible. Your car is an extreme example; there aren't very many cars smaller or less-hardened than yours. You don't need to drive a large car to drive a car bigger than a Miata. Obviously the situation dictates your tactics, but I still think the best tactic under most circumstances is to remain inside your car, even in a Miata convertible.

JD0x0 said:
The follow through from a baton, bat, crowbar, etc. hitting a window would likely strike me, especially if I have a passenger as I would not have room to lean away from my window enough to ensure safety.
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Inside your car, an impact weapon is highly unlikely to cause you any serious damage on the first swing. Have you ever smashed a car window with a hammer or other impact weapon? It's much more difficult than it looks and the window absorbs most of the energy from the swing. Instead of getting out of your car to confront an attacker with an impact weapon, it still makes more sense to stay in your car with your gun and be prepared to shoot if needed, even in a Miata convertible (as long as the windows and top are up). You're still a lot more protected from an impact weapon inside a Miata convertible than you are outside of it.

Getting out of your car removes the protection you have from an impact weapon. Sure, if you have a chance to get out of your car before your attacker is too close and you're also fast enough to always stay on the opposite side of the car from him, then that might work. But the better option is usually to simply to stay in your car and be prepared to shoot if the person starts to breach your car, even if you're in a Miata.
 
@Theohazard

In the Marines, I was taught to get out of a vehicle when it was hit. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s we didn't have armored Humvees or 5-tons, and the worry was that we'd get hit with rockets or other explosives. But civilians and law enforcement officers rarely have to deal with explosives, so inside a car is often the best place to be.

I have worked with a few law-enforcement instructors, and when I told them that my first instinct was to get out of my car if I'm getting shot at, they pointed out that being inside a car can be a good defensive position in a gunfight.
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Theo, when you see stand off scenarios or police officers using their vehicles for cover, are they ever IN their vehicles? They are using their vehicles as cover from outside their vehicle.

If the situation had turned into a gun fight, he would have to shoot through the window, which would likely deflect his shot. While the car itself is maneuverable, a passenger in the vehicle is not very maneuverable. Cars provide very poor coverage, especially newer cars (in the name of fuel efficiency). They provide very little concealment as well.

If I had to shoot at a car, I would aim where the occupants would be seated. As I mentioned, the attacker is in FRONT of the other vehicle and he is approaching. It has not been determined if he is armed or not. Approaching him with the vehicle reduces the distance, making it easier for him to shoot you. Backing up is not really an option on an off-ramp.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if I was in the situation, I would draw my weapon and prepare to exit my vehicle. The door offer little protection so I after a verbal warning, I would move to the back of the vehicle. I am not a cop and I don't play one on tv, but I did have a situation once that has caused me to believe my course of action would be the right one.
 
I don't necessarily think the OP did anything wrong, except claim he would have started shooting at 21 feet. If he was truly blocked in, getting out of the car may have some merit - it gives you some freedom to move around if the road rage guy happens to be armed. Otherwise, you may be a sitting duck. We've had this discussion before, and depending on the details of the situation, I could go either way on whether to stay inside your car or not. Details like: how blocked in was he; how many aggressors was he facing; avenues of escape; size and type of the OP's vehicle; size of the aggressor's vehicle....

Personally, I'd stay inside my vehicle. If there was any ability to get around the aggressor's car, including hitting it with my vehicle, I'd opt for that. If not, I would hide inside of my Jeep, if I had time - my jeep's big enough to give me some options with multiple doors, etc. As my EDC only has 8 shots of 9mm, and to make sure that I am not shooting anyone who just intends to yell at me, I'm not firing any shots until someone is trying to break into my car to do obviously do harm to me or my passengers. Getting out of the car is an option, but from what I've seen, your chances go way down when being attacked by multiple attackers once you are outside of your car.
 
A lot of folks are still hanging on to the idea that the OP's car could drive away. Sorry folks, you don't get to choose the scenario or modify it to suit.

Here is what was presented: OP is riding in a car. Road rage guy exhibits extreme anger and traps the car so it can't move. Then RR Guy starts to get out of the car. You are armed, and you and your driver are capable of exiting the vehicle. That's it. And the question is, what do you do?

I am absolutely correct in saying that if RRG has a gun, you better get out of the car before he does. That's worst case, and it is unlikely, but you are already in an unlikely situation. If you guess that he doesn't have a gun and you are wrong, you are probably dead. Inside the car you are a stationary target with no cover.

So, what do I do? Get out of the car, make no move to draw my weapon, and tell my driver to call 911 Right Now. That's it. What happens next has to be evaluated, and it could go a hundred different ways.
 
The news story would read:
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Men from two cars were involved in yet another tragic road rage indecent on the freeway this week. The indent started on the freeway where it's unclear which driver starred the altercation.
After exiting the freeway and stopping on the ramp men from both cars excited their vehicles. At this point the passenger from one car fatally shot the unarmed driver of the other car.
Witnesses say the victim was shot just while exciting his vehicle.
One witness was quoted as saying " the guy was just getting out of his car - he was just shouting at the guys in the other car and walking over and they just shoot him. This is why we need more gun control, man. I mean these psychos shouldn't have had guns. "
The victim is survived by a whole bunch of family that all remember him as a great guy. The shooter is in police custody awaiting arraignment. Some politicians who want to be seen as "tough on violent crime" are demanding the shooter be tried for murder.
State police are investigating the indecent, and declined to give comment.
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Maybe not your perception of the truth, but to anyone not on the car you'd just be a guy that killed someone in a road rage indecent.
Unless he's approaching with a gun (or shooting at you) the best option is to either drive away, or let them smash up your car a little.

Unless you're driving one of the more expensive Ferraris, any damage to your car is going to be a drop in the bucket next to what you pay in legal fees to defend yourself in both the criminal and civil trials, and then any appeals that come after.
 
@dayman,

That is your assumption of what the news story would read and what would occur. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but there are other plausible scenarios.

The ticked off road rage guy decides to draw a weapon and shoot both occupants of the car. No one caught the license plate since the other car was blocking the view. The passenger was armed but could not shoot accurately from within the car. yada yada yada survived by yada yada yada...
 
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Inside the car you are a stationary target with no cover.
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No, this depends on the car. I have a 4-door Wrangler. I can easily get into the back. Then, I have the option of exiting the vehicle on the right side, left side or back. I will not be staying buckled into the front drivers seat. But, if you exit the vehicle, you better be ready to deal with the legal consequences when you shoot someone without a mark on your vehicle...not a position I'd like to be in. In a small sedan, I might choose to exit the vehicle, possibly on the left side, if I have time, to create more distance between me and the aggressor.
 
I can easily get into the back.
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You may be concealed back there, but you will have no cover.

you better be ready to deal with the legal consequences when you shoot someone without a mark on your vehicle...not a position I'd like to be in.
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Really? I have to wait until after RRG damages me or the vehicle to protect my life? It doesn't work that way. There just has to be an eminent threat.
 
Thanks for everyone's input, I've been reading posts and doing a lot of reflecting. This is where I am:

1. I think preparing to exit the vehicle was the right choice. Say the aggressor comes to the driver side window (I'm in passenger seat) and busts the window or presents a firearm of his own. The driver is now caught in crossfire and were both like shooting fish in a barrel.

2. It was very irresponsible for me to just say I would shoot if he got within 21 feet.
For me to get to that point, the following would need to happen; he would have had to fully exit his vehicle and I mine. With my pistol at the low, I would tell him to get back in his car. If he continued at us, aggressively, I would have raised my pistol. If he continued, he is probably psychotic with intentions of doing physical harm and may even have a weapon of his own. Serious thought would be given to pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of variables that would affect decisions made in mere seconds. Do I fire a warning shot? Not at the ground, it could ricochet and hit an innocent person. Would I shoot his trunk? Good possibility.

When it comes down to it. I'm glad things never escalated to such a serious situation and I appreciate all the feedback. I've learned a lot from this experience.
 
Good post. Sounds like you've done a lot of thinking since your original post.

Would I shoot his trunk? Good possibility.
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Warning shots might not be a good idea, as Marissa Alexander found out. If you're in fear of imminent death, you need to shoot whoever is causing the threat until they stop, not other inanimate objects around you.

Florida State Attorney Angela Corey will seek to triple Marissa Alexander’s original prison sentence from twenty to sixty years, effectively a life sentence for the 33-year-old woman, when her case is retried this July, The Florida Times-Union reports.

Alexander was convicted on three charges of aggravated assault in 2012 for firing warning shots in the direction of Rico Gray, her estranged husband, and his two children. No one was hurt. Alexander’s attorneys argued that she had the right to self-defense after Gray physically assaulted and threatned to kill her the day of the shooting. In a deposition, Gray confessed to a history of abusing women, including Alexander.

“Remember that when Marissa Alexander fired her warning shot to save her own life, she caused no injuries. Now she’s facing the very real possibility of spending the rest of her life in prison for that act of self-defense,”
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http://www.thenation.com/blog/17864...years-prison-firing-warning-shot-self-defense

Just remember that you can't use deadly force unless you're in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Why would you shoot someone's trunk instead of them if you were in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm? Must not have been too imminent if you had time to shoot at their car.
 
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