Michigan Law Section 750.234e would seem to indicate that setting the weapon on the dash is not an exempted case and would be brandishing.
Almost drew my gun yesterday
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Michigan Law Section 750.234e would seem to indicate that setting the weapon on the dash is not an exempted case and would be brandishing.
True, but is the car still a weapon if the driver stops and exits the vehicle? It seems similar to someone who waves a knife above their head, and then sets the knife down and approaches.
Agressive behavior alone would not justify shooting unless the threat is percieved as serious and immediate. A weapon, a comunicated threat, a violent action (attacking the victim), a furtive movement as if quickly reaching for a concealed weapon could justify deadly force.
YARDDOG(1)
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Two people in the veical, One should have been on the phone with 911 JMO ; ) PS A firearm is the LAST RESORT
Y/D
Y/D
I think based on you description of being boxed in and unable to leave your preparatory actions were wise. However, your premise that you would have shot him at 21 feet would put you in prison.
First, 21 feet is not any magic number legally for self defense. You did not see an actual threat or a weapon to justify deadly force AND YOU WERE LOCKED IN YOUR CAR! You were scared and "whatifing" worst case scenarios. No matter how scared you were, based upon the facts described you were not justified to pull the trigger. Even if he beat the crap out of your car, you still do not have justification to kill him over property damage. It is often difficult to accept that your property could be destroyed while you sit by with a gun in your hand.....this is where experience and restraint come into play. "Things" can be replaced.
As you have seen in threads all over this sight, the right of self defense is based upon ACTUAL facts leading one to believe they were about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm.....NOT POTENTIAL SCENARIOS unsupported by evidence.
First, 21 feet is not any magic number legally for self defense. You did not see an actual threat or a weapon to justify deadly force AND YOU WERE LOCKED IN YOUR CAR! You were scared and "whatifing" worst case scenarios. No matter how scared you were, based upon the facts described you were not justified to pull the trigger. Even if he beat the crap out of your car, you still do not have justification to kill him over property damage. It is often difficult to accept that your property could be destroyed while you sit by with a gun in your hand.....this is where experience and restraint come into play. "Things" can be replaced.
As you have seen in threads all over this sight, the right of self defense is based upon ACTUAL facts leading one to believe they were about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm.....NOT POTENTIAL SCENARIOS unsupported by evidence.
How do you differentiate the difference between someone 'beating the crap out of your car' and someone trying to break into your car to hurt you?
People seem to assume everyone drives a big escalade or SUV.
I drive a first generation Mazda Miata. It's a very small car and if someone was to beat up on my car, they'd be dangerously close to me. My car wouldn't offer adequate protection in most cases. There's no where for the driver and passenger to hide or take cover.
Even if the guy was just smashing my headlight, he'd be an arms length away from being able to break one of my windows and harm me.
indie_rocker
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My thoughts were similar. I felt that if he was outside the window, he was too close. Ever see those emergency vehicle tools? Seatbelt cutter and window breaker in a compact hammer design. It's easier and faster than some might think to shatter auto glass.
There are almost endless if this then that possibilities. I'm a CPL holding Iraq veteran and that was my reaction. I did NOT draw my weapon, but I sure as heck was prepared to. I know Michigan is not the big sandbox and I understand the difference between war and civilian life. I will protect myself and the people I care about, combat zone or city street, makes no difference to me.
As said previously, I appreciate all the input. It gives myself and possibly others a lot to think about.
There are almost endless if this then that possibilities. I'm a CPL holding Iraq veteran and that was my reaction. I did NOT draw my weapon, but I sure as heck was prepared to. I know Michigan is not the big sandbox and I understand the difference between war and civilian life. I will protect myself and the people I care about, combat zone or city street, makes no difference to me.
As said previously, I appreciate all the input. It gives myself and possibly others a lot to think about.
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OldMarksman
Staff
In Post # 10
45_auto said exactly what I was about to say.
45_auto said exactly what I was about to say.
The lawful citizen is not in jeopardy of grave bodily injury or death until they are in jeopardy of grave bodily injury or death.
The threat has to be immediate. Someone is attacking the hood of a car can be a completely different matter than the same person attacking the passenger compartment.
The threat to one's life will be easily communicable if it exists. Until that threat exists (not the possibility, but the actual threat) there is no justification for deadly force.
The threat has to be immediate. Someone is attacking the hood of a car can be a completely different matter than the same person attacking the passenger compartment.
The threat to one's life will be easily communicable if it exists. Until that threat exists (not the possibility, but the actual threat) there is no justification for deadly force.
To the question,...I think the distinction between trying to "break into the car and get you" vs "beating the crap out of the car" is fact specific as to the threat to your person. One jumping up and down on your hood/roof denting it in or breaking your headlights, kicking side etc (while you are secure within the vehicle) is quite different than coming at you or your window with a tire iron or visible weapon.
I think most of us would feel pretty mad and scared to have some 300lb monster jumping on our hood/roof (as an example) expressing his rage.....and REALLY want to shoot him. However, still need an objectively reasonable set of facts to show threat of death or grievous bodily harm.....not just property damage.
I think most of us would feel pretty mad and scared to have some 300lb monster jumping on our hood/roof (as an example) expressing his rage.....and REALLY want to shoot him. However, still need an objectively reasonable set of facts to show threat of death or grievous bodily harm.....not just property damage.
Kind of reminds me of a story concerning one of my female Soldiers in Iraq. She was a small 110lb pretty young blond w/ blue eyes (typical female infidel). She was driving a duce through a small village when the convoy halted. At that time she noticed the men at a small cafe were looking, pointing and talking in here direction (good situational awareness). Apparently the men had some muslim issues with her looks and one approached and jumped up on here running board (window was down, poor tactics). Almost as soon as his feet set, he found a 9mm Beretta pressed against his forehead and was politely asked to step down. I think he must have spoke english (or the international language of "gun at your head") because he was happy to comply (good response with a happy ending). 
Claude Clay
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Suppose the guy is hearing impaired, and cannot hear your commands?
--->that is on him. after all, if he is speaking at me, a valid assumption is that he can have a 2-way conversation
But he is walking towards you and obviously upset? Would a reasonable person fear for their safety just because someone is upset at them?
--->depends on so many factors that unless you are there, it is all supposing.
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I am with 45 and will add...
your friend needs better driving skills. if one can not stop with enough room to go around a crazy than reverse, even if it means tapping the vehicle behind you BEFORE going to gun. prove to those who may be judging you that you tried your best before having to do your 'worst'.
--->that is on him. after all, if he is speaking at me, a valid assumption is that he can have a 2-way conversation
But he is walking towards you and obviously upset? Would a reasonable person fear for their safety just because someone is upset at them?
--->depends on so many factors that unless you are there, it is all supposing.
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I am with 45 and will add...
your friend needs better driving skills. if one can not stop with enough room to go around a crazy than reverse, even if it means tapping the vehicle behind you BEFORE going to gun. prove to those who may be judging you that you tried your best before having to do your 'worst'.
indie_rocker
New member
He definitely needs better driving skills, I agree 100% there.
You, Sir, may or may not have been justified in your willingness to react. I don't know. I wasn't there. I do know that you're not good at explaining your justifications. Most of us, frankly, aren't, especially under that kind of pressure. If you do ever have to follow through, when the police arrive, point out any physical evidence that you know about: weapons, spent casings, anything like that, but don't try to explain yourself. Let a lawyer do that. Based on your short post you could easily convince the police that a justifiable case of self-defense was something less. Stand your ground is an important law. The 21-foot rule you describe is a significant piece of tactical knowledge, but the way you put the two together may well leave an impression with an investigator that you overreacted.
Some in depth reading on justifiable use of force are in order. A place to start without much investment in time and money would be stickies on this site.
Some in depth reading on justifiable use of force are in order. A place to start without much investment in time and money would be stickies on this site.
spacemanspiff
New member
A grain of salt? Tell me, what response did you expect to recieve? A bunch of 'attaboys' and pats on the back? Your tune seems to have changed. At first your tale of the account indicates that you are willing to use deadly force on people who are aggressive and within a specific distance of you, no matter if they have actually made any threat against you or produced a weapon of any sort.
Once again, I will ask, was there NOTHING else that could have been done to dissuade the other driver if he had approached the vehicle? Can you think of ANYTHING at all that you or your friend who was driving could have done that does NOT involve drawing a weapon out and presenting it?
edit - By the way, has the thought occurred to you that most of the input here so far is actually based on our own real life experiences in similar situations? And that our understanding of the laws of self defense in the states we reside in has been thoroughly researched?
motorhead0922
New member
The last place you want to be if there is a serious threat is in a car. You will have difficulty with drawing, moving, aiming, etc. And if you do have to pull the trigger, you may never hear anything again.
So, I do not see a problem with the OP exiting the car. For whatever reason, his car could not move. The potential threat was exiting his car. The OP was not yet justified in drawing his weapon however. But how do you know the threat would not have a weapon on him? I think exiting the car and being ready (without drawing) in case the situation escalated would be proper.
So, I do not see a problem with the OP exiting the car. For whatever reason, his car could not move. The potential threat was exiting his car. The OP was not yet justified in drawing his weapon however. But how do you know the threat would not have a weapon on him? I think exiting the car and being ready (without drawing) in case the situation escalated would be proper.
Road rage can happen to anyone, at anytime, for most anything. Just knowing that in advance and being aware of it, puts you a leg up.
If someone obviously angry makes any attempt or motions for me to pull over, if I do so, it will be my decision, and I will choose the location. And, I'll only do that if the situation is so dire that I don't have any other option(s).
I don't drive in such a manner to hack others off. But who knows, maybe you don't have to drive irresponsibly to hack others off. Maybe the other driver is psychotic and doesn't need a valid reason to go off.
Being armed or not can and does make a difference. If armed, you still have to know your rights and how to act within the law. Most people have a cell phone with them. Best thing to do is call 911 and let them in on what's going on.
Bottom line is that you simply cannot cover all scenarios that could happen to you. The best advice is to drive carefully and politely, don't engage others if they are enraged with you, keep driving until you arrive at a public place and honk your horn to draw the attention of others (witnesses).
If someone obviously angry makes any attempt or motions for me to pull over, if I do so, it will be my decision, and I will choose the location. And, I'll only do that if the situation is so dire that I don't have any other option(s).
I don't drive in such a manner to hack others off. But who knows, maybe you don't have to drive irresponsibly to hack others off. Maybe the other driver is psychotic and doesn't need a valid reason to go off.
Being armed or not can and does make a difference. If armed, you still have to know your rights and how to act within the law. Most people have a cell phone with them. Best thing to do is call 911 and let them in on what's going on.
Bottom line is that you simply cannot cover all scenarios that could happen to you. The best advice is to drive carefully and politely, don't engage others if they are enraged with you, keep driving until you arrive at a public place and honk your horn to draw the attention of others (witnesses).
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I've been in situations like this a couple of times, road rage isn't limited to any specific region. It happens everywhere now. You were the passenger, that gave you the ability to use your phone.
The driver of your vehicle should have put as much distance between you and the aggressive driver as possible while you were on the phone with 911. Others have pointed out the legal consequences of shooting in those circumstances, and I agree that you would be facing a world of legal problems if you had engaged with a gun in that situation.
Even if he wasn't deaf, he could have been carrying too. Or maybe in the heat of the moment you didn't notice the other person who may have been with him. Bottom line- if you can get away just get away. Some loser's anger issues aren't worth ruining or ending your life.
The driver of your vehicle should have put as much distance between you and the aggressive driver as possible while you were on the phone with 911. Others have pointed out the legal consequences of shooting in those circumstances, and I agree that you would be facing a world of legal problems if you had engaged with a gun in that situation.
Even if he wasn't deaf, he could have been carrying too. Or maybe in the heat of the moment you didn't notice the other person who may have been with him. Bottom line- if you can get away just get away. Some loser's anger issues aren't worth ruining or ending your life.
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