All things considered, do I CCW the Sig P220 or the M1911?

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Futo, SA arent good for self defense? Gee. I'd wager theres probably at least a million folks over the course of nearly a century that would beg to differ with you. Its not the ACTION that causes ND's, but a LACK OF TRAINING. Cops who carry glocks have 8-12lb triggers cause their depts dont TRAIN them ENOUGH or PROPERLY. The 80 series 1911 Colt has 3 safeties. If a person has an ND with a gun that has 3 safeties, perhaps that person shouldnt carry a firearm, any firearm, until they get the proper TRAINING. My safety doesnt come off until my target is identified and my sights are on it. For the cop, he could have the weapon cocked and locked, safety on, sights on a perp, and if TSHTF, the safety's off and he's got the best trigger in the world at his disposal at a fraction of a second. I have done this under stress, with adrenal glands in overtime, and I've NEVER had a ND. No one I know of has had a ND with a 1911, but then, they're properly TRAINED, too. Also, I'm not sure if you ment that the glock was DAO, but its not. DAO triggers are supposed to emulate that of a DA revolver. The glock definately doesnt do that. As a matter of fact, it seems like glock was trying more to emulate a single action trigger without the safeties. They really didnt do that, either. Just my experiences.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
It all depends on if you want:
1. an oversized underpowered Double Action,
or
2. an oversized, underpowered Single Action.

I like 'em with more than 7 rounds,
Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
Ben:

Sorry bud....I just gotta ask ya. If you consider a .45ACP "...underpowered..." for a self defense weapon, what do you recommend?

Maybe a man-portable nuke demo charge? ;)

Mike
 
01Paw, as mentioned above, many people who carry pistols for defense are untrained and will remain so regardless of how much you think they should train. Just a fact. Now, you're right, for YOU and others with proper training, the SA is great, provided you've trained under stress over and over, and you certainly seem to have some experience in this area, so I wouldn't question you on that count. However, the vast majority of people don't train a lot or even a little, unlike most people lurking at TFL. So I suppose my comments are for the general public, not those like you willing to train to keep your finger off the trigger until deadly force is justified. As someone mentioned above, in competition he gets in the "low ready", then simultaneously releases the safety while raising the pistol - a perfectly sound, safe and quick method, seems to me. BUT 90%+ of the people carrying SAs are going to take it off safe once the threat is remotely presented. With any luck, the finger will stay out of the trigger guard until firing, but unfortuantely we know that's another basic rule broken by the masses - of course this is a recipe for an ND when under stress. Although the 1911 was a great a defense gun for many years, if it's still the best, then why in the world does everyone and their dog now make DAO pistols instead (and yes, the Glock is a DAO in essence despite what you say, and despite it's technically bein a half-DAO - it's 100 times more like a smithed DAO revolver or DAO autoloader than it is like an SA), including glock, smith, ruger, Para, many others?? It's because people figured out there's something better/safer for LEOs and the masses than an SA.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 18, 1999).]
 
ober...whatever the heck your name is,

Comparing the Sig and HK and saying the HK is better than the SIG or viceversa seems a little overboard. Both manufactures have earned a reputation for function and reliability. Both SIG and HK see police and military applications and have been accepted by the consumer market in a big way.

When I was shopping for service sized semi-auto, my choices finally came down to a USP and SIG 226 in 9mm, both in standard DA/SA configuration. I got the opportunity to fire both models respectively, and as far as function is concerned, both worked flawlessly. The only reason I settled on the 226 was ergonomics. I could not get a comfortable grip on the USP and I couldn't stand the stipleing on the USP's grip. The redesigned 226 grip felt much more comfortable in my hand and the fact that it carries a doublecolum mag did not make a difference. Can't say the same thing about Smith, Ruger, Berretta, et al. The only single action that comes close to the comfort of my SIG is a Hi-Power, with a 1911 close behind.

I hope my "direct" post did not offend the 1911 lovers out there, I too hold great respect for the 1911 design and probably always will, but for right now I choose to put my trust in the SIG. I do not disparage anyone their choice, whatever it may be. I believe I stated simple fact that the SIG P-Series is probably the most reliable, accurate sidearm out-of-the-box that can be had. I see no reason to say that the HK is not at least as reliable.

So let us not fall into the,"mine's better thatn your's." trap. It will not answer the question that was posted.



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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
This is a perfect example of why I would choose a SIG220 over a 1911!!!! This is a testimonial from Shooterdave from another thread:


"I just got and shot my new Custom Classic last night and wow!--can this puppy can shred paper At 10 yards I was getting tiny, ragged holes where ostensibly 14 rounds had passed (which is amazing accuracy, especially for me).

The pistol is a fine testimony to the machinist's art, and I was especially pleased with the gun's fit considering that it is Kimber's "bottom of the line" model. Slide-to-frame fit is scary tight (perhaps too tight?) and the beavertail is mated to the frame with extremely close tolerances. Trigger might have been in the 4.5 lb range and it was very crisp with zero creep-like breaking glass.

In all, I ran 200 rounds of 230 grain ball through the gun, and experienced only two hiccups.

1) Bullet nose in the magazine nudged the slide stop up in the middle of a string-will wait and see if this is a recurring problem, and will consider replacing/milling slide stop.

2) Failure to eject-almost a stovepipe, but the casing got caught parallel to the barrel which really chewed up the casing mouth. This is a problem that I will have to address now, and I blame the extractor, since the gun was throwing casings almost straight back-the rear bevel of the ejection port was dotted with brass specks where the cases would bounce off and it's concievable that this one casing just didn't clear the slide. Extractors have always been an Achilles heel of the 1911 design so I'm not discouraged-might try an aftek adjustable extractor."

Can you believe this is a satisfied shooter??? For those of us who own SIGS, HKs, Glock malfunctions are very rare (unless you got one of those nasty 229s that seem to plague the SIG name, or have a "one in a million" lemon). When I spend $600+ on ANY gun, it better work, or its going back. This notion of accepting anything less than perfection, or expecting to invest further into a brand new gun just to make it work right is crazy to me. Can someone explain this to me???


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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn


[This message has been edited by PeterGunn (edited November 18, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by PeterGunn (edited November 18, 1999).]
 
Mike,
I don't feel that the 45ACP is underpowered in anyway... but such large guns in the same or slightly smaller caliber can hold twice as many rounds. I don't see the attraction of carrying a giant 7 round gun.

I carry my ICBM in a DeSantis Pocket holster.

Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
I agree, PeterGunn, that reliability record is unacceptable. Which is why I no longer have my Glock 21 since it choked a couple times. But I still have my Kimbers, since none of them have ever jammed on any round.
 
Whew! Great replies and thanks for them. I have decided to not carry the full-size 1911; more weight than my liking. Will probably not purchase another P220 either. Most likely will choose Colt CCO in .45, Sig P245 in .45, or Sig P239 in 9mm...
 
Futo, I agree that alot of shooters dont take their training very seriously, and I would never steer a new shooter into a 1911. As a matter of fact, I wouldnt steer a new shooter into an auto-loader period. I'd suggest to a new shooter a good quality 4" 357 such as a S&W 686, or something similar. But we're not fielding questions from a new shooter. Dogger stated in his 1st post, I believe, that he's had plenty of training/ experience with the M1911. Its not as though he's never fired one before. As to the question of whether a glock is DAO or not(not really part of the original thread, but I mentioned it, so....)you said the vast majority of glocks are smithed to DAO trigger pulls, so the glock is really a DAO? Hmmm. I dont see it that way. Whats the factory trigger pull if you dont request something different? 5lbs? I cant remember. I know its not 8-12 straight from the factory. My Officer's Model is dialed in to 4.5lbs. So. I've got a weapon with 3 safeties(2 manual) and a 4.5lb trigger. If glocks do usually come w/ 5lb triggers and NO manual safeties....Also, first you say that 90% of people dont train as diligently as say you or I. Wouldnt it then be a logical comparison that most people, who dont train seriously enough, wouldnt sent in their glock(if they had one) to get a heavier trigger installed? At any rate, this isnt about 1911's and glocks, and I dont want to turn it into a 1911 VS glock war. I think they both have their strong points. Carry what your good with, you know? But when I hear someone say that a weapon that was designed for WAR, is only worth its salt in a competition and not self defense, I just gotta say something. Sorry :) As far as reliability goes, most major gun manufaturers have had their problems. Sig P-220's frames would crack under the pressure of plus-P ammo before Sig solved the problem in 1994. I've had Berrettas fail to fire, glocks front sights fly off and their mags not drop free. A buddy's glock 40 ka-boomed. HK's, S&W's, and every other gun you can imagine has had or will have its problems at one time or another.Why? Cause they're made by mere mortals :) I firmly believe the 1911's so called bad rep for reliability is maybe a little overblown. Sure it has its problems. I believe in the past(correct me if I'm wrong) many of the 1911's parts were hand machined and fitted. Companies have been making shortcuts, I believe, and doing less hand-fitting to keep cost down. Also, people look at malfunctions of the 1911 in its competition role, so it must be an unreliable gun. Those race guns are set up to extremely tight tolerances, sometimes set up for a certain load/ bullet, and any deviation from that, or a dirty gun, results in a malfunction. The 1911, as it was originally designed, is one of the most reliable designs made. It functioned in the trenches of WWI, the battle fields of WWII, in the arctic, the jungle, the desert, just about everywhere. Leave the dang thing as close to original as possible, and your chances of a reliable, accurate weapon is much, much better. At any rate, peace to you, Futo. And Dogger? Any of the choices you mentioned will probably get the job done for you in the role you've described. Sorry this is so long, guys. Guess I got my 2nd wind there.... :)

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
I never said most Glocks are smithed to DAO trigger pulls. I said regular Glock pull is much much more like a DAO (i.e. smithed revolver or regular DAO auto) than they are like an SA. I see where the phrase I used, "smithed DAO", was ambiguous. Sorry for the confusion. I have corrected it now. Oh, and a Glocks trigger, while "only" 5.5 lbs. is, far more importantly, much much longer than the short 4 lb SA 1911 - big difference - it takes a long deliberate pull; hence it being much more like a revolver or 12 lb. DAO than an SA, IMO. Enough alphabet soup for ya? Onepaw, I think we really agree on everything in the end. You've given us some good info. Thanks a lot, and again I must defer to those of you who have much more experience than me - I'm just an "armchair quaterback", as I have never trained with or carried a 1911 (still saving $). :)

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 22, 1999).]
 
Futo: OH! OK. I understand what you were saying about the glock triggers now. Not too sure I agree with your assessment.... :) but you're right. I think we agree on far more than we disagree. Take care, Pardner.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
Pete something,I still say that the Sig maybe as reliable as the Hk (which I dont own)

Are you implying that the Hks are not accurate by your statement "the SIG P-Series is probably the most reliable, accurate sidearm out-of-the-box that can be had" because I know the Hk is at least as reliable.
Unless Hk builds their pistols different than their sub guns and rifles I think they have the edge in reliability and no cracked slides. Maybe the Government should be informed that the Sig is just as reliable and more accurate than that SOCOM they bought.

To bad John browning couldn't supply you with a sample of a 1911 and you could see for yourself that nothing since then has any real advantage in design. Service pistols having 150,000 round lives sound all right to me.
Maybe if a few years there will be dozens of companies making Sig pattern pistols and I will be able to make a blanket accusation about the Sig design based solely on one of these not so good companies.

This older thread sums up my reasons for owning the 1911, to each his own.

George Hill
Moderator posted November 10, 1999 08:53 AM
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It wasnt so much a wanting of only US made arms - but a desire to rid my self of heavy double action triggers and such.
The excellence of the 1911 is unsurpassed. There have been many guns made like it, made after it, attempted improvements. Nothing has actually been made BETTER. Different - but not yet better.


[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited November 20, 1999).]
 
You really cant fault the design of the 1911.
It is engineering elegance. I hope no one gets offended at this... but I think many of you guys who discount the 1911 as a viable carry gun are perhaps not confidant in your training and discipline enough to handle such a weapon. The fact that it has a light crisp short pull trigger compaired to the longer heavier pulls of the DA type autos - seems to indicate that you cant keep your finger off the trigger untill your ready to fire. You do have TWO external safeties... But this is still not enough?
Hmmm...
If that isnt enough, are you sure your Sig with its longer, 4 pound heavier trigger is enough for you? You may need to carry in Condition 3.
I carried both types for years. When I started out in the service - M1911 was it. The Beretta was selected and all - but my units didnt get them for a long time. When they did, I was given the option. I test fired the M9, and it was good - but I kept my .45. Even if it wasnt tactical black & hi-capped. Heck - it didn't have a touch of finish left on it. It did save my life though. Some time later, oh - mid way through my Academy I was taken in by the Double action autos. Its taken me 8 years to get over it!

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey, have I mentioned my new book? It is called:
MEN ARE FROM MARS and WOMEN NEED TO JUST DEAL WITH IT!
 
Good point George. Although I'm at the point where I'm planning to buy another 1911 pattern, I'll not unload my SIGs or my S&W revolvers.

If Kansas comes around to passing a CCW law, I'll probably do what I always did...let the weather and how I'm dressing dictate which weapon I carry that day.

IMHO, you need to practice with and maintain a respectable level of skill with all three: SA, DA/SA auto and with revolvers.

Mike
 
Ok one more time for the gentleman with the funny name in the back...yes you.

I INTENDED NO NEGATIVE COMMENTS TOWARD THE HK, WHETHER THEY ARE USPs OR SOCCOMs!!!

If you read the entire post, you would have read that my personal purchase came down to a SIG and a HK USP. I liked them both, but chose the SIG for egonomics. The HK simply did not fit my hand as well.

That being said, your little temper tantram concerning the durability factor of the HK and the SIG is interesting, but not really full of fact. I would heartily agree the SOCCOM pistol is a fine sidearm indeed, but it was never intended to replace any of the current 9mm in current service. The SOCCOM pistol is a "mission specific" weapon, designed for special ops. But, to base one's entire argument of one manufacturers weapon's durability on one gun seems a little silly. I would never say that S&W make "bad" guns just because the Sigma series hasen't performed all that well, it would simply not be true.

For all of the horror stories of cracked frames/slides, KBs, failure to fire, etc. You would think that SIG would be out of business. But that is not the case and most distributors are having trouble keeping them on the shelves and SIG is having to reduce the amount of weapons sold to the public just to fill military and poilce orders.

By the way, just another little tidbit for you ober. Last time I checked, the SEALs were still carrying the 226 as there sidearm...THEIR OWN CHOICE.

Bottom Line: The SIG is probably a better gun than most...even with a cracked slide.



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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
Yo, mr. gunn, did not intend my comments to rile you. On your ergonomics I am in perfect agreement with you, and also the fact that the sig is one of the best guns out there.

Reason for my aparent bashing was your initial statements about "if you say any 1911 is more reliable than a sig..." obviously if the gun is broken or made by aftermarket manufacturer to whatever specs they think, I agree and the 1911 shouldn't even be compared. That statement is a little all incompasing and I just wanted to point out that a properly made (not necessarily expensive) 1911 will work just as well.

I was using Mark 23 or USP series as reference for reliabilty and accuracy in comparison to sig, and not accepting sig as having any practical superiority in these areas.

Thankfully we dont have joe blow aftermarket people making Hk's or Sig's to their own spec's, and if we did there would be a lot of discontent on these forums about their design flaws. This would not be fair to Hk or Sig, but that is how many would look at it, as many look at the 1911 this way.

I will leave this as last reply as our comments are likely to descend into ad-hominem.

Thanks for spirited discussion, see ya around.

By the way, we do agree that the 45 is better than the 9 don't we? hehehe

[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited November 22, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited November 22, 1999).]
 
ober,

I do not necessarily believe the .45 is better than the 9mm. I do not allow myself to fall into the trap of, "Bigger is better."

All things being equal, I do not think it is fair to compare the two. The come from two different ballistic philosophies. Light/fast, and heavy/slow. I personally choose the 9mm in my 226.

Seeing the research, both perfrom well in most situations, and both are practical choices...so to each his own.

If I truly subscribed to the bigger is better line of thinking, I would probably have a .50 AE Desert Eagle.



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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
They should have called the SOCCOM the "HCTOHEPFWID" - "Holy Crap, That's One Huge Expensive Pistol For What It Does". ;)
 
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