All things considered, do I CCW the Sig P220 or the M1911?

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Dogger, if you want to carry a 1911, get a COLT or a 1911A1 made for the gummint. The Kimber is a wanna-be and I wouldn't trust it, from the comments of the other members. The only other 1911 I would trust is one I checked out myself to my satisfaction. You have to make the call yourself what level of uncertainty you are willing to live with. My level precludes any 1911 clones I haven't personal experience with, no matter how attractive they look or are priced or how "loaded" they are.

You can also carry the SIG 220. It's a fine 45, the best available besides the original COLT 45 Automatic. I would trust my life with it, based on the comments of knowledgable members. I've only personally fired about a box of ammo thru a friend's SIG, but I had a 229 in 357 SIG and it's very similar, so I know what to expect. It's easier to shoot accurately than a 1911. For a less experienced shooter (or someone who prefers it), it would be a good choice.

NDs. while always possible, should not be a problem to someone of your obvious skill level. Regards

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There is the science of Ballistics and the Art of Bullistics
Yankee Doodle
 
The SIG P220 is a superior handgun in comparison to the Kimber...
However, neither is a good choice for CCW...
The P220 is a large service style pistol, you may want to consider the P245 or the MADE FOR CCW P239...
If you really like 1911's go with compact style 4-" barreled Colt or Springfield...
If you have the $$$ Wilson's or Les Baer's are second to none...
NUFF SAID.
 
The SIG P220 is a superior handgun in comparison to the Kimber...
However, neither is a good choice for CCW...
The P220 is a large service style pistol, you may want to consider the P245 or the MADE FOR CCW P239...
If you really like 1911's go with compact style 4-" barreled Colt or Springfield...
If you have the $$$ Wilson's or Les Baer's are second to none...
NUFF SAID.
 
You could opt for the HK USP.
Not just blowing HK sun shine - but you get some good bonuses:
1. Cross familiarity with the 1911.
2. A Bobbit lever.
3. All the great HK frills such as reliability and accuracy.

The Sig P220 is an excellent gun. So out of the 2 I would opt for the Sig. The 1911 - well - it depends on the make and model. So that being an unknown at this point... The Sig.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
I like 1911's lots! In fact, your decision reminds me of a stupid old pop song of the early 80s, "Torn Between Two Lovers." That's the way that I feel when I think of SIGs and 1911s.

Based on your own priorities, it sounds like the SIG fits the shoes in all catagories. Argueably, #s 4,5,6 sway toward 1911, but is a matter of manufacturer of the 1911 (heard good things about Kimber accuracy) and YOUR personal preferences. I'd try to find a range that has these handguns available and buy two boxes of ammo for each. Then decide based on that and what we've told you. Hope this helps. Any personal requests to EQUALIZERplus@netscape.net

Robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)


[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited November 11, 1999).]
 
I think George states a good point about the HK USP as a third alternative, since it combines some of the features of the 1911 and the P220.

As to the choice of 1911 vs. P220, to me it's a toss-up. I personally find the 1911 easier to shoot, and I have no doubt that there 1911s in the world that are at least as reliable as the P220. Unfortunately, I've encountered enough unreliable 1911s to have more confidence in the P220. :)
 
The MOST IMPORTANT thing to take away from
this discussion is to carry and use whatever
YOU are most comfortable. A carry gun should
 
Sorry for the repost. Old age is hell!
Your carry gun should be as comfortable
as an old pair of shoes. If it isn't,
when the "ship hits the sand", you will be
at a disadvantage against the goblins.
Debating the merits of SIG vs. Colt misses
the point of the exercise. Carry whatever
YOU are most comfortable with, and practice
like hell!

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Never do an enemy a minor
injury. Machiavelli
 
The argument that the DA/SA system is difficult to master is bogus. The only individuals who have difficulty mastering the LONG DA PULL are those who have never done it or are unwilling to learn it. If one is committed to practice the LONG DA PULL of the Sig and you prefer it, go for it.

Now to answer the question. The gun that best fills the criteria is the SIG 220, hands down.

1)Reliability: Any goof who is willing to tel you that any 1911 is more reliable than a SIG 220 is blowing wind up your skirt in a big way. Sure, after you spend $300.00 to $1000.00 on a 1911 it may come close. Reliability is SIG's bread and butter.

2)No matter what some people may say, pulling the hammer back and locking it is inherently more "dangerous" than a DA. Without complete training and mental conditioning, is a SA truly safe. I too am not comfortable with carrying a SA in condition one. Is it because I'm one of Jerry's kids or "I can't handle it"??? No I just am not comfortable with it...just like I ain't comfortable wearing bikini brief underware.

3)Number 2 and number 3 kind of are related. If a semi-competant prosecutor with a hatred for gun owners is persistent, he will dredge up some bonehead to tell the jury of the SA pistol's shortcomings. Best stick with the DA (SIG). Better yet the DAO pistols are even more PC when your court date rolls around.

4)Ease of carry is a wash. I carry a SIG 226 and I have no problems concealing it. You may have to alter your wardrobe a bit but it can be done.

5)Sig again wins this hands down, especially if we are talking out of the box. Only the berrettas even come close to the inherent out of the box accuracy of a sig. Yes, Yes I know, 1911 can be "match grade" accurate, but hardly ever out of the box.

6)This one is entirely up to you. You are gonna have to shoot both to fgure that one out.

I think having a 1911 is a good idea, but so is having a Luger P.08, a Browning Hi-Power, and Colt Peacemaker. All great guns and gobs of fun to shoot, but when the chips are down, the sig is what I reach for.




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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
Dogger, Both the Kimber and Sig are great guns, but i would recommend the Sig. Its one of those guns you hear nothing but prase for and plus you won't have to worry about an 1911 Grip Safety.
 
Well, I guess I'll wade in here. This is some advice from someone who owns, fires, and carries both. A major factor in CCW is your body/type/ size. I'm 5'11", 180lbs. I find it hard to conceal a full-sized, blocky weapon like the P-220. I've tried IWB's, no dice. Strong side hip holsters, no way. And even a decent Desantis shoulder holster, which made it look like I had a tumor under my left arm during the warmer months. Not to say the Sig isnt a good weapon. I carried it openly for 4years in some very sticky places, and I'd bet my life on it. What I carry 98% of the time, however, is a SS Officer's model Colt. Strong side hip or IWB are not a problem with this gun, and as a matter of fact, although the Sig's very accurate, the Colt is more so. I've also found that I'm faster and more accurate with my 1st shot with the 1911 than with the Sig, and thats after shooting both actions ALOT. You'll just have to decide which weapon you feel more comfortable with, which one you shoot under stress better, and which weapon is more comfortable in your chosen mode of carry. Good luck, both are fine weapons and will serve you well.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
Interesting--and intelligent thread. FWIW, I carried a 1911 style in cond. 1 as an LEO for some years. Also was a firearms instr. for most of my career which included training and qualifying people (all kinds, I might add) with DA revolvers, SIGs, Glocks, etc. My personal choice came to be the DA .357 revolver which meets your above criteria very well even now. I had to give up the 1911 type pistol for duty circa 1978 or so; probably would have done so voluntarily in time as chances of an AD or other civil liability in the real world are unacceptably high. Similarly, 1911 reliability out of the box, compared with SIGs and Glocks--or revolvers-- is not what it should be, which is a pity. I oversaw a lot of qualifications with sig 220s, and came to respect them a lot. The DA/SA bogey never seemed to be that big a deal with serious shooters, and my partner earned an expert ticket at Gunsite with one somewhat to Jeff Cooper's surprise. I finally did get a SIG 220 in DAO which has its advantages and is, I think, much more practical than a 1911 in this day and age. I would like a better DA pull on the gun and may send it off for that work some day. My personal bottom line, though, is that on my worst day I can shoot the DA revolver better than the SIG on my best day. Decision: made.

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Dogger,

I own a full size Kimber stainless Custom/Classic 1911A1 and a Sig Sauer P-220, and I have fired 2000+ rounds through each. BOTH ARE EXCELLENT WEAPONS, WITH SUPERIOR QUALITY, RELIABILITY, DURABILITY AND OUT-OF-THE BOX ACCURACY.

I would offer a few points based on personal experience with both weapons:
a) The Kimber had a "break in period" (<1000 rounds) where I experienced a 1 to 2 percent jam/failure-to-feed rate with various major-brand, factory new, 230 grain .45 ACP FMJ loads. This problem has been resolved, due to breaking-in plus the use of Wilson 10 round stainless mags.
b) I have NEVER had a jam with the Sig P-220.
c) The Kimber is SLIGHTLY more accurate; however, these differences are minuscule at the range and they would be entire irrelevant in any time-critical defensive situation.
d) YOUR PERSONAL ERGONOMICS, HAND FIT, COMFORT, NATURAL AIM, ETC. IS CRUCIAL TO YOUR KIMBER .45 ACP 1911A1 VERSUS SIG P-220 DECISION.
e) ALSO CRITICAL IS YOUR INDIVIDUAL EVALUATION CONCERNING SINGLE ACTION ONLY (THE 1911A1) VERSUS SA/DA IN THE SIG SAUER.

My bottom line:
a) You cannot go wrong with either the Sig P-220 or the Kimber 1911A1; both pistols are truly outstanding.
b) Your individual preferences (particularly SA versus DA and ergonomic comfort) are key to "your right" decision.

I would offer one final suggestion: Save enough to eventually buy both!!


[This message has been edited by RWK (edited November 13, 1999).]
 
Thanks for the many replies. Right now I am working with a Colt CCO as the carry piece. I like it a lot, but it has not been 100% reliable. It has about 300 rounds through it. It shoots point of aim and is plenty accurate. No failures with Winchester Silvertips or 230 grain Hydrashoks, but I had failures to feed with 185 grain Speer Gold Dots and even some 230 grain ball ammo at last range session. Geez! I am tempted to clean/lube it well, replace the recoil spring with a Wolff spring, and go back to the range with a bunch of ball ammo, Silvertips, and Hydrashoks and shoot at least 100 rounds to regain confidence with it. Just irritates the heck out of me to have a bobble with a $600 gun! Never had a malfunction with a 9mm Sig P225...
 
300rounds isnt enough to really condem that pistol. Shoot the livin daylights out of it, say 600-1000 rds, then start reliability testing with defensive ammo such as Hydra Shock or whatever. If the 185's dont function well, dont use them. Dont understand why you'd want to anyways, the 45acp became a renowned stopper with 230gr bullets. If you still have problems after, say, 1000rds, then I'd start looking for problems. You mentioned it hasnt bobbled with Hydra Shocks as of yet, and thats some of the best 45 defensive ammo on the market. Dont worry yet. I think your gun is a good one.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
While I understand both the reservations some have about the 1911, and the praise they have for the Sig, here's an observation:

When I shoot IDPA with my 1911, and am im 'low ready' or on the move after the first shots, the safety is on. Very safe. When the gun comes up, the safety comes off. Gun down, safety on. Just my method, and it's reflexive. You can hold someone at gunpoint, finger on the trigger and thumb on the safety, very safely, and take the safety off in time for a very fast shot, imho (haven't done it tho)

With the Sig, after the first shot, you now have a cocked hammer/light trigger pull. If you're on the move, unless you decock, it's riskier, and decocking all the time is impractical. I also reflexively put the safety on with my 1911 whenever holstering, but I worry that in stressful situation after shooting, someone might holster the Sig without decocking, and have an AD/ND.

I found for that reason that the 1911 is VERY safe in combat conditions for me. Btw, I'm a lefty, so Sig's decocker is a hassle for me, and I haven't owned one. I've shot them though, and am impressed with their accuracy. My $.02

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited November 16, 1999).]
 
IMO the Hk forte is reliability not the Sig, pete.

As clint smith says "a concealed weapon it supposed to be comforting not necessarily comfortable." Asked why he carries the full size 1911, because there aint nothting bigger.

I get tired of hearing about the evil condition one 1911, if you can't handle a gun with 3 safties you need help. Or 2 on older designed guns. I personally own colts but have heard good things about kimbers mostly from former colt owners.

Cocked and Locked that's my OP.


[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited November 16, 1999).]
 
Dogger, as far as avoiding liability and NDs, the MAIN reason I wouldn't carry for CCW a single action cocked and locked is for this reason.

Suppose you're in a real defense scenario. You see the threat; you pull your pistol. What's the very next thing you're going to do? That's right, take it OFF safe. Now, your adrenaline is pumping hard at this point - so hard that you wouldn't even feel yourself accidentally pulling a 4-lb. trigger and boom, ND! (assume the threat didn't materialize and you weren't justified in shooting or you weren't aiming at the time and hit a bystander). It's just too, too easy to ND a single-action when the SHTF and the adrenaline is rampant. There's a good reason cops carry DAOs, guys. There's a good reason cops upgrade to NY and NY+ (8 and 12 lbs). Twelve pounds is mucho easy to pull when the adrenaline is going! Four pounds is a dead innocent waiting to happen. So in other words, NDs while handling and holstering, etc., would not be my concern with someone of your experience - it's the rarely-experienced real-live situation that concerns me.

BTW, I have never had such a situation, so I am speculating an educated guess based on many things read. I've also experienced the effects of adrenaline as we all have, just not while holding a gun with someone threatening my safety. Someone mentioned the "graybeards" - perhaps some of them have more to share on the subject. 1911s are "da bomb" for competition, but not defense, IMO.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 18, 1999).]
 
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