All things considered, do I CCW the Sig P220 or the M1911?

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Dogger

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OK, here is the deal: "Carry one gun all the time". "Train as you will fight". "Shoot in practice what you bet will your life on." Yadayadayada... Should I put my money into the stock Sig P220 in .45, or should I carry the full size Kimber 1911? Same amount of dough spent on both (about $700 for gun and holster). This gun is for home defense and CCW. I do not shoot in competitions.

Criteria are:
#1: reliability
#2: minimize chances of an accidental discharge
#3: avoiding civil court after the defensive shooting
#4: ease of carry
#5: accuracy
#6: fun to shoot

I appreciate your opionions! Thanks.
 
Dogger:

Based on your criteria, go with the SIG P220. IMHO, it fits your requirements better than a 1911 pattern pistol.

I carried 1911s in condition 1 for some years, and never felt comfortable doing it. Although I was extremely well trained, the fact is a condition 1 1911 with it's light trigger (3.5 to 4 lbs for self defense) may be a liability.

I'm not familiar with Kimber, but I can speak for SIG P220: It's extremely accurate from the box; it's as reliable as any semi-auto can possibly be. The only malfunction mine ever experienced was due to a non-factory magazine. The 220 has an alloy frame, thus it is somewhat lighter and perhaps more conducive to ease of carry.
It's DA mode of operation w/a hammer drop is about as safe as you can get.

Hope this helps.

Mike
 
I agree with Mike, especially with your #2 concern. The long DA first pull for the Sig makes for a very safe carry. For defense, no worry about carrying cocked and locked, releasing a safety, etc. If the need does arise, all you have to do is pull the trigger.

I have a P220, and have to say it is a reliable, accurate weapon that will serve you well.

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Regards - AZFred
 
I totally disagree with Mike. There is nothing unsafe about condition one carry. Go with the Kimber, you won't regret it. If weight is a concern, go trade the SIG for a Kimber Compact Aluminum or Pro Carry.
 
Rik:

Actually, I agree with you. There is nothing unsafe about condition 1 carry with a 1911 pattern pistol (by trained and dedicated personnel) and I didn't mean to imply that they were unsafe. They are, however, more demanding in their manual of arms.

I do maintain that all things being equal, based on Dogger's criteria (not mine or yours), and not having personal knowledge of his level of skill/training with either type of weapon, there is less chance of a ND with a DA pistol than with a SA pistol. That may or may not be true, depending on an individual's level of competency with a weapon. The fact that he (Dogger) asked the question indicates that he really isn't sure because he may not have a lot of experience with condition 1 carry of a 1911. Dogger, if I'm wrong, my apologies...you've gotta admit though, your question indicates otherwise.

Best,
Mike
 
No offense taken. :) I was in the Army from 1974-1998 (tanker). I grew up with the M1911. Fired expert with it numerous times on standard Army qualification ranges (pop up targets from 5 to 50 meters). I am very familiar with the M1911, but do not consider myself an "expert" with it for civilian carry. I have not participated in any civilian courses of instruction. On active duty, my unit NEVER carried the M1911 in condition 1 (unless confronting an immediate hostile threat, and then the weapon was out of the holster). I spent 4 months in Somalia where ADs were a daily occurance among American soldiers (not with pistols [we had Berettas], but with M16A2 rifles, Mark 19s, and M60 machine guns). I was more afraid of being zapped by a GI than by a Somali. Anyway, I am not uncomfortable carrying an M1911 in condition 1. I have carried M1911s in condition 1 off and on the last 2 years. I have never had an AD/ND with a pistol (and don't want to! :) ) I have read some of the AD/ND threads on TFL and it appears that many of the "greybeards" on TFL have seen plenty of AD/NDs in the course of their travels. So I wanted to get an assessment from you guys who have seen a lot of M1911 and P220 civilian carry, competition, police employment over the years. Based on your experiences, and my criteria, which is best? Thanks
 
Have you shot both types of guns? If not, I would suggest going to a range that allows you to rent these types of firearms. The ultimate factor is simply, which one do you handle best.

For myself, I own both types of guns. I much prefer the 1911 style. I carry one daily, and the cocked and locked doesn't bother me at all.

Don't let someone's opinion on their personal favorite be your reason for buying a gun. Both of these models can be very reliable and accurate. Choose the one that feels, and handles the best for you.
 
In the past I've been a big fan of double actions (I still own several), however, I have recently converted to the single action style 1911 type pistols. My reason for doing it was simple, I started shooting IDPA and found that I had a hard time hitting anything with that first heavy trigger pull. For me the safe thing was to be able to hit what I was aiming at without throwing wild shots down range.
As far as reliability, I've run about 4000 rounds through my Kimber Compact (aluminum stainless) with almost no falures. I cannot say the same about any other pistol I have ever owned, with the possable exception of a Beretta 96 I have, which eats anything you feed it. I have never owned a Sig, but I have heard good things about them.
 
First off, I think you SHOULD compete with your carry gun - OK I'm done preaching now.

I'd carry the 1911. Your first shot hit potential is probably much greater with the 1911 - I've seen some pretty interesting first shots in competitions from DAs.

You already know the 1911, nothing like familiarity.

The 1911 is inherently safer than the P220 because of the safety.

And what if some smart guy manages to get your gun sometime. I'd bet you buy yourself 2 seconds of reaction time as he may not know the safety is on, on the 1911. P220 goes bang in your face.

Assuming these guns are both reliable with your carry ammo, I think the 1911 is your best choice here.

I carried a 1911 Cocked and locked in the Marines for 3 years - not one of us had a ND in the whole company.

Just practice, practice, practice.

Both are excellent guns, either way.

Tom

------------------
Don't Tread on Me

Why 10mm beats .45 ACP . . .
www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm


[This message has been edited by Tomas (edited October 14, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Tomas (edited October 14, 1999).]
 
Theo, you hit the nail on the head. Anyone who does any kind of defensive shooting practice can tell you it is hard to be accurate with that first DA shot when the pressure is on, and it is also difficult to transition from the DA to the SA next shot...there is a tendency to not let the trigger travel far enough forward for the second shot.
 
Greetings; Based on your #1-priortery, go
with the Sig P220A. Always reliable, all
the time !!!!

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Ala Dan
 
I think the SIG P220 is the better choice because of criteria #3. A 14 pound DA first shot will make AD/ND argument more difficult in a civil case.
The DA/SA transition is not as problematic as some would have you believe. If you practice, the transition becomes transparent. Use the pistol You are comfortable with.

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May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

~Blades~
 
All things considered, Go with the 1911. Since you are familar with it, it is only a matter of practice to become used to condition 1 carry. The ease of carry issue was the pivot point in my opinion. The thin, flat profile of the 1911 make it one of the easiest guns to carry and conceal. While both choices are excellent for self defense, remember you will carry it alot more than shoot it. Carry comfort is a major factor here. I would recomend than you take a look at the alloy frame Commander length models. The lighter weight and slightly shorter slide make them much better choices for daily carry.

[This message has been edited by Grayfox (edited October 15, 1999).]
 
It is more question than reply. If there is a problem with long first DA trigger pull of SIG, why in immediate danger not to cock it? It will take almost the same effort and time as disengaging safety, and even if you forget it, you still will shoot.

Zentao
 
zentao:

There really isn't a problem with the DA pull on a SIG or other quality DA/SA semi-auto pistol. There is no need to thumb cock for the first shot.

It's addressed by practice. In an IDPA match, you will be able to see that the good shooters with SA 1911s will be a fraction of a second faster that good shooters with a DA pistol. In a practical, self defense situation, it just wouldn't matter, assuming the DA pistol shooter had worked to master the DA pull and transtion to SA.

Mike
 
Dogger, since you're not intimidated by the weight of a 1911 why not go & handle the new Para LDA ?
A very light DAO pull of 5lbs & you can carry 11 to 15rnds of .45 or 11 o 17nds of .40 S&W ! :D
Being sold at a gun shop near you ?
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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
Alternate E-mail
HS2000@ausi.com
 
I've carried 1911s off and on for over 30 years w/o an AD, and they've a track record no other carry weapon even approaches. The caveat is to get qualified instruction,and not every gunshop commando is qualified.

Some caveats about all the after market stuff available:

If your weapon has a good,clean, safe trigger of less than 5 lbs, and sights that YOU can see easily regardless of light level, grips that work for you,AND 100% reliability, your weapon is ready.

The next thing you buy is lots of ammo and/or reloading components and some range time. Check all your mags to make sure they function reliably,and drop cleanly from the weapon when needed.

Good luck....
 
So Mike, if I disagree with you, I must be on an ego trip? You need to read up on a psychological disorder called "projection."
 
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