He was referencing my 1911 when he said it, basically saying similar things in previous posts that if it is not maintained to perfect standards it can be a problem, where in his opinion, if you just let a glock or M&P sit neglected it will still work. He also seemed to think you can beat up a polymer gun a lot more than an all metal. He was a big tactical guy and liked getting dirty. We were on the ground in different scenarios so I can assume that is what he meant.
All metal reliability
- Thread starter tdgator
- Start date
It would have been helpful in the beginning to know he was referring to your 1911 and you were also considering replacing it with a CZ... the thread would have gone differently I think.
The contentious blanket statement that all-metal is less reliable wont fly here and simply isnt correct.
Are all-metal weapons less tolerant of poor maintenance? Perhaps... depends on the particular model I suppose.
Folks around here despise generalizations, and will often (annoyingly) ask for "evidence", or use words like "empirical" or "anecdotal" as if this were a court instead of a enthusiast discussion forum.
Of course, we also despise the spreading of misinformation of which we have no shortage.
With that said and knowing that a DW Valor 1911 is at the top of my wishlist... I agree with him to some extent as you've paraphrased his comments above.
I've never owned a 100% reliable 1911 (I've had a few), but so far I have owned 3 100% reliable Glocks with higher round counts.
One 1911 in particular would act up if it had too much lube, it would start acting right mid-way through the first box of ammo then start acting up again around 200 rounds when it got dirty (stove-pipes). This trend repeated many times over the years and was predictable.
On the other hand, my all-metal CZ75 was 100% and as far as I know so is my brother's CZ that has many more rounds through it.
So what have I personally gleend from all that?
1911's can be finicky, but of course there are some good ones. Lube can make a difference with them.
Glocks don't tend to be finicky, but of course there are some bad ones. They seem unphased by lube or lack of it, except for wear.
I rarely hear about a troublesome CZ, but I dont hang out at the CZ forum either. I kept mine clean/wet, my brothers is always dirty...
I really like 1911's, but would not allow one into my nightstand without many many proving rounds through it, and even then..?
The contentious blanket statement that all-metal is less reliable wont fly here and simply isnt correct.
Are all-metal weapons less tolerant of poor maintenance? Perhaps... depends on the particular model I suppose.
Folks around here despise generalizations, and will often (annoyingly) ask for "evidence", or use words like "empirical" or "anecdotal" as if this were a court instead of a enthusiast discussion forum.
Of course, we also despise the spreading of misinformation of which we have no shortage.
With that said and knowing that a DW Valor 1911 is at the top of my wishlist... I agree with him to some extent as you've paraphrased his comments above.
I've never owned a 100% reliable 1911 (I've had a few), but so far I have owned 3 100% reliable Glocks with higher round counts.
One 1911 in particular would act up if it had too much lube, it would start acting right mid-way through the first box of ammo then start acting up again around 200 rounds when it got dirty (stove-pipes). This trend repeated many times over the years and was predictable.
On the other hand, my all-metal CZ75 was 100% and as far as I know so is my brother's CZ that has many more rounds through it.
So what have I personally gleend from all that?
1911's can be finicky, but of course there are some good ones. Lube can make a difference with them.
Glocks don't tend to be finicky, but of course there are some bad ones. They seem unphased by lube or lack of it, except for wear.
I rarely hear about a troublesome CZ, but I dont hang out at the CZ forum either. I kept mine clean/wet, my brothers is always dirty...
I really like 1911's, but would not allow one into my nightstand without many many proving rounds through it, and even then..?
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carguychris
New member
I have a car with a plastic valve cover, intake manifold, and throttle body...ritepath said:
If there is "crud" along the rails, it would be more of a problem with the little tabs than with a full-length rail. There would now be four times as many opportunities for something to catch on an edge. However I've never heard of any evidence of a problem like this in either case, and if there were such a problem then a simple design change would be to give all-metal guns little tabs too.
realizing, of course, that this is only anecdotal, but I have owned a 100% reliable 1911A1 (Colt Govt Model) and I have had a GLock JAM on me at the range!!!
the other side of the coin has value too, and also spends just the same...
in other words, no matter what (within reason) you are talking about, somebody has had it work, and somebody has had it fail.
One thing I have seen happen often (or at least often on the Internet) is people buying new, high dollar guns, and then running them on cheap crap ammo, complaining about how the GUN has failed....
Someone oughta build a Glock out of steel and make it reliable. I think this would be fun to watch.
A number of folks seem to believe that reliability lies in a striker and polymer and that a gun composed of these holy objects can do no wrong and is ultra reliable. A totem or fetish in which the mystical power of "reliability" resides.
"My father's house has many rooms. Room 43, 17, 23, 20, 19 and many more, different calibers and strikers on every door."
So I think a Glock in carbon steel should be built. Just to see what happens...
Also there are many more polymer guns in that last 20 years than just Glock.
tipoc
A number of folks seem to believe that reliability lies in a striker and polymer and that a gun composed of these holy objects can do no wrong and is ultra reliable. A totem or fetish in which the mystical power of "reliability" resides.
"My father's house has many rooms. Room 43, 17, 23, 20, 19 and many more, different calibers and strikers on every door."
So I think a Glock in carbon steel should be built. Just to see what happens...
Also there are many more polymer guns in that last 20 years than just Glock.
tipoc
Walt Sherrill
New member
tipoc said:
They're available -- in both stainless steel and aluminum alloy. Do a Google search on "metal-framed Glocks" and you'll find a few. Including one by Robar. (There are videos of the gun, many gun mag evaluations of the gun, but I can't find it on their web site.) They were available about 6-7 years ago, and some sites offered them, but seem to no longer carry them.
One of the firms that still seems to be in business -- CCF RaceFramesLLC -- makes the following points about their frames and after-market parts makers:
First – it’s important to keep in mind that a Glock® is designed and built to extremely loose tolerances as it’s primarily a battle gun, and those loose tolerances are necessary for reliability in hostile environments. Combining those loose tolerances with a flexible plastic frame, a Glock® will run with a wide range of dimensionally out of spec aftermarket components – even when those components are destructive to the pistol. Because of the frame’s flex, the destructive forces are lessened somewhat, but destructive forces are exactly that, destructive. They will simply take longer to demonstrate themselves in the way of a failure, sometimes catastrophic.
We have found the aftermarket component tolerances span an alarming range, even from the same manufacturer. Because of the Glock’s® loose tolerance design and it’s ability to run or appear to run fine with any number of dimensionally wide ranging components, aftermarket manufacturers have not had to discipline their components build quality to the dimensional tolerances the CCF RaceFrame® requires.
We have found the aftermarket component tolerances span an alarming range, even from the same manufacturer. Because of the Glock’s® loose tolerance design and it’s ability to run or appear to run fine with any number of dimensionally wide ranging components, aftermarket manufacturers have not had to discipline their components build quality to the dimensional tolerances the CCF RaceFrame® requires.
Here's a link to the CCF site:http://www.ccfraceframes.com/faq.php
I think I'd love to have an alloy-framed Glock, with one of the better trigger systems, etc. I suspect, however, it would take a bigger budget than I'm likely to spend on a handgun...
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I doubt I have much really to add beyond what has already been said, but here does anyway.tdgator said:
There are all-metal firearms that are 150 years old that still shoot. How many stories have you seen or heard about people finding old 1911s in barns or attics, or even digging them up out the dirt, cleaning them up and they shoot? Could a polymer gun do that? Maybe. But ...
have you ever seen a 1911 warp from direct exposure to strong sunlight?
"Polymer" sounds all nice and high-tech, but basically "polymer" means "plastic." And, pretty much by definition, all plastics rely on various compounds called "plasticizers" to create their physical properties. Some more than others, all plasticizers are volatile, which is why cheaper plastic stuff becomes brittle and falls apart after a year or two. Polymer firearms bodies are (hopefully) a little better than that, but I expect that a hundred years from now you'll still be able to pick up a genuine WW1 M1911 and shoot it (not that I recommend doing so to a collector's item). I don't expect to see many 100-year old Glocks that can be safely shot.
I respectfully disagree. There is NEVER a use for someone who conveys incorrect information -- especially incorrect information that has life-or-death consequences.Sevens said:
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Limnophile
New member
I assume that a plastic-framed handgun would fare better than a 1911 after being buried in moist dirt. Metal corrodes in the presence of water, but buried plastics are rather resistant to chemical degradation underground.
No, but I can't imagine this happening to a plastic-framed gun unless it is stored improperly. Plastics are vulnerable to photodegradation from UV exposure, but despite lots of cops carrying Glocks openly in sunny climates, I've never heard of any such problem occurring.
By the way, weren't the original 1911s built Glock-like/AK-47-like in terms of having loose tolerances so as to ensure functionality in harsh combat environs? I'm under the impression that building 1911s to tight tolerances, like Dan Wesson does, is a more recent (1960s?) trend.
Walt Sherrill
New member
I'd expect almost any gun -- whether polymer-framed or steel-framed -- buried unprotected in moist soil or stuck away in a drawer in humid conditions, maybe wrapped in cloth, will be a problem weapon after an extended stay there. For while the polymer might not be harmed, any steel inside that frame that gets moist will corrode and degrade -- and depending on conditions, even aluminum alloys can corrode. All of the springs in the gun, which are critical to function -- recoil, striker, hammer, magazine -- are likely to fare poorly if kept stored in such bad conditions.
As I understand it -- imperfectly, to be sure -- aluminum can't rust (as it's condition that affects iron or steel) but it can -- under the right (or wrong) conditions -- corrode. Depending on the cause of the corrosion, and whether the aluminum is in contact with other metals or the by-products of their deterioration, an electro-chemical process can take place between the different metals which can cause even more damage to the aluminum.
This past year, I picked up a beautiful old (full-size) Llama 9mm 1911 imported by Stoeger, back when Stoeger really watched quality control; it was the second such Llama I've owned. The first was a tack driver after a broken part was replaced and the gun lightly tuned. I later sold it and found myself regretting the sale. I found a replacement locally.
The replacement looked like it just came from the factory, but it had a very heavy trigger, and the grip safety was stubborn and didn't always work as it should. While I've done some home-gunsmithing on S&Ws and CZ, and BHPs, I've never had much to do with 1911s -- they are a bit of a mystery to me. I gave the Llama to my gunsmith to get right.
The gunsmith later said it was badly rusted internally; happily, he was able to clean it up pretty well. The trigger is still heavy -- a new project for him, one of these days? -- but now crisp; the grip safety works as it should, and the rust is no longer a problem.
That gun was NOT buried, seemed to have been cared for, came to me in it's original box, with all papers, and looked like it was ready to go on display somewhere.
I mentioned my Llama only to make the point that metal -- even metal that was seemingly well cared for -- is no guarantee of long-term functionality unless its truly well-maintained. The same would appear to be true of polymer-framed guns.
The plastic used in gun frames, nowadays, seems to be almost as durable as steel or alloy, but we won't really know about long-term durability for a long time. But it looks as though, with proper care (and protection -- like not leaving the gun out on a hot rock in Death Valley for several years -- it's going to hang around without crumbling to dust.
The other point nobody ever addresses in these arguments about the relative longevity of metal or polymer guns is PARTS!! Repair parts may be a much bigger problem than frame materials.
It's difficult to get parts for many guns that are over 30-40 years old, now, and it won't be better 70 years from now. Ruger doesn't have parts for some of their relatively new guns, some Third Generation S&W parts are hard to find from S&W, and I'm sure the older SIGs are going to be a problem one of these days; parts for some of their NEWER guns can require long waiting periods; what's going to happen 30-40 years from now, if you need THOSE parts? I had a badly damaged BHP barrel a while back, and couldn't find a factory barrel -- and had I found it, the barrel would have cost me $400+. I got an after-market barrel; don't know if those companies will still be in business 20-30 years from now.
On the other hand -- I've seen they've made a whole 1911 using a 3D printer. Maybe that'll be the way we get gun parts in the next couple of decades... If technically competent, maybe we can just print them ourselves?
.
As I understand it -- imperfectly, to be sure -- aluminum can't rust (as it's condition that affects iron or steel) but it can -- under the right (or wrong) conditions -- corrode. Depending on the cause of the corrosion, and whether the aluminum is in contact with other metals or the by-products of their deterioration, an electro-chemical process can take place between the different metals which can cause even more damage to the aluminum.
This past year, I picked up a beautiful old (full-size) Llama 9mm 1911 imported by Stoeger, back when Stoeger really watched quality control; it was the second such Llama I've owned. The first was a tack driver after a broken part was replaced and the gun lightly tuned. I later sold it and found myself regretting the sale. I found a replacement locally.
The replacement looked like it just came from the factory, but it had a very heavy trigger, and the grip safety was stubborn and didn't always work as it should. While I've done some home-gunsmithing on S&Ws and CZ, and BHPs, I've never had much to do with 1911s -- they are a bit of a mystery to me. I gave the Llama to my gunsmith to get right.
The gunsmith later said it was badly rusted internally; happily, he was able to clean it up pretty well. The trigger is still heavy -- a new project for him, one of these days? -- but now crisp; the grip safety works as it should, and the rust is no longer a problem.
That gun was NOT buried, seemed to have been cared for, came to me in it's original box, with all papers, and looked like it was ready to go on display somewhere.
I mentioned my Llama only to make the point that metal -- even metal that was seemingly well cared for -- is no guarantee of long-term functionality unless its truly well-maintained. The same would appear to be true of polymer-framed guns.
The plastic used in gun frames, nowadays, seems to be almost as durable as steel or alloy, but we won't really know about long-term durability for a long time. But it looks as though, with proper care (and protection -- like not leaving the gun out on a hot rock in Death Valley for several years -- it's going to hang around without crumbling to dust.
The other point nobody ever addresses in these arguments about the relative longevity of metal or polymer guns is PARTS!! Repair parts may be a much bigger problem than frame materials.
It's difficult to get parts for many guns that are over 30-40 years old, now, and it won't be better 70 years from now. Ruger doesn't have parts for some of their relatively new guns, some Third Generation S&W parts are hard to find from S&W, and I'm sure the older SIGs are going to be a problem one of these days; parts for some of their NEWER guns can require long waiting periods; what's going to happen 30-40 years from now, if you need THOSE parts? I had a badly damaged BHP barrel a while back, and couldn't find a factory barrel -- and had I found it, the barrel would have cost me $400+. I got an after-market barrel; don't know if those companies will still be in business 20-30 years from now.
On the other hand -- I've seen they've made a whole 1911 using a 3D printer. Maybe that'll be the way we get gun parts in the next couple of decades... If technically competent, maybe we can just print them ourselves?
.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"I'm just curious which handguns don't have springs?"
This one...
This one...
jetinteriorguy
New member
Hah, that's a good one. Well, I did ask.
Walt Sherrill
New member
It's semi-automatic, too. (Emphasis on SEMI-... it reloads as quickly as the shooter can do it.)
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Walt Sherrill
New member
They are less expensive, to be sure...
But, it's interesting to note that despite inflation, many of the metal guns are selling TODAY for prices not a lot greater than some of the sold for 10-15-20 years ago. The quality isn't always the same, but you're really getting your money's worth whether it's metal or polymer.
Limnophile
New member
I was thinking the slide is massive enough to resist being affected substantially by corrosion over a period of burial, and that the innards would be afforded some protection by a polymer frame. But, no slide-to-frame fit is watertight. So, upon further consideration, I must agree with you.
Well, rust is the corrosion or iron, but aluminum does corrode. Aluminum tends to corrode in such a way that the oxide layer protects the underlying metal, which is not typical or iron corrosion. But, environmental forces can work to degrade the protective layer. For example, in a classic soil column the surface soil is depleted of both iron and aluminum, which get transported downward by water where they tend to accumulate in the subsoil.
Your story about the Llama points out that the innards are the most vulnerable parts in terms of reliability. Composition of the frame in no way affects those.