All metal reliability

To play devils advocate... he's not entirely off-base on all counts.
Steel guns tend to have somewhat full-length slide-to-frame contact, and that presents a much larger surface area for something to cause drag and slow the slide.

The advantages of the poly guns is that their rail contacts are usually short/small... like Glocks four little tabs.
If there is crud in the rails it only drags on the small contact areas instead of along the entire length of the rails.

Specifically, there are two ways his comments can make sense:
A very tight (safe queen variety) thats not broken in and/or clean and oiled correctly.
or
A full-contact inner or outer rail that is gunked up with lube, lint, power grit and dirt... think: dry sticky paste.

Both conditions will slow a slide considerably...
 
That's.... just silly. I can kinda understand where he was possibly going with (Dashunde explains it pretty well) but still. Silly, and bad advice.

There are reasons to not love all-metal guns, weight, width (grip panels can make the grip wider), a tendency to DA/SA or SAO in all metal framed guns... but reliability is not one of em.

At least IMO.
 
I don't like all metal guns, I prefer my grips to be wood, plastic, or rubber. THE REST OF THE GUN BETTER BE ALL METAL, or I'm not buying it. (but that's just me)

Likewise I'm not buying what that instructor was selling, and its a pity you paid good money for bad opinions.

Considering that several "all metal" handguns have a century or more of constant use and production (including that fossil, the revolver), I'd tend to think that a lot of folks consider them trustworthy enough....
 
The advantages of the poly guns is that their rail contacts are usually short/small... like Glocks four little tabs.
If there is crud in the rails it only drags on the small contact areas instead of along the entire length of the rails.
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This is not correct. The longer slide contact of a Sig P226, M9, 1911, BHP, CZ75, etc. has never been a common factor that caused a slide to slow down due to "crud". not even significant amounts of mud, sand, ice, rain, etc. All the above mentioned guns and others have long records of service and use in rough conditions and the amount of crud to effect them would have to be extraordinary to effect them. There is no evidence that polymer framed guns are better or worse in this regard.

There is a good amount of evidence that full rail contact (a tighter slide to frame fit) can be a factor in enhancing accuracy in steel framed guns. Polymer frames get around this by generally having a good barrel to slide lock up. Generally you can't tighten their (poly guns) slide to frame fit.

The instructor was wrong or mis-quoted. There's no reason to go looking for "the logic" in what he said. He was just wrong.

tipoc
 
Tipoc, we can agree to disagree.

My own experience with 1911's and others tells me that all-metal guns need more attention to the amount and type of lubricate used.

How many times have we heard around here that a particular gun likes to run "wet" or "dry"? It's usually referring to a all-metal gun.

The problem is not on the recoil stroke, its on the return stroke where you only have the recoil spring pressure to return it to battery, if its gummed up that stroke can easily be impeded, made worse by every linear inch of additional frame-to-slide contact that the spring has to overcome.

The four little metal tabs in most polys act as scrapers that clean out their own grove in the slide and they allow for the crud to fall out.

I'm not agreeing with the general concept that all-metals are not as reliable as poly's...
I'm saying the longer the frame-to-slide contact area is the more effect excess dirt or lack of lubricant can have.
 
he would never fully trust an all metal firearm for his home defense gun. He said with metal on metal everything has to be running perfectly, lubed perfectly, cleaned perfectly etc or else the possibility of failure is dramatically increased.
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Taking another look at this statement....wow, still boggles my mind.

Based on this, the speaker is both lazy, ill informed, and apparently does not trust ANY rifle or shotgun (they are all steel too, the functional parts, anyway).

I say lazy because he is making a blanket statement, which is only a partial truth. Ill informed, because of the same blanket statement of partial truth. And, I'm inferring he doesn't trust rifles & shotguns, because of the same, blanket statement (he said "firearm", which covers everything).

If his statement was amended to include the qualifier "that no one has done proper maintenance on..", it would be closer to the truth.

I wouldn't blindly trust any firearm for HD that no one does proper maint, on. Tis a fact of life, some maintenance must be maintained, or the machine will not run right. Always has been. Even the combat Tupperware class of pistols require some care, and the fact that it may be significantly less than an all metal gun is a matter of degree, nothing else.

All metal guns need some degree of care (cleaning, lubing, etc.) but it doesn't have to be "perfect" for things to work. It just has to be good enough, and there a WIDE range of what will be good enough.

It is true that if you don't take the proper care of things, the possibility of failure is "dramatically increased". WHAT in life is an exception to this? I can't think of anything right now...

Please don't bother to explain how the polymer pistols are better, because they need less care, etc. That's not the point. The point, as I see it is essentially, an instructor, telling students he doesn't trust "all metal guns" because they need some kind of care. Because the guns and the care has to be "perfect" or the risk of failure is dramatically increased...

I realize that we have only the OP's word on it, and the instructor's statement might be out of context. IF he said that, and followed it with "and this is how you prevent that" giving correct instruction on the maintenance needed for "all metal", guns, I would have less of a problem with the statement, but only less..

As a stand alone statement, of opinion, it's valid enough, after all, opinion can be anything, right, or wrong. As an accurate statement of fact, it has more holes in it than one of my targets, on a good range day!
:D

I'm just curious which handguns don't have springs?
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Its a joke. It would have been clearer with something like this :rolleyes:, added.
 
The instructor doesn't necessarily have to be a bad instructor when it comes to his methods of teaching the hands-on and quite a lot depends on exactly what kind of "course" you paid for and how much it cost.

The quote attributed to him does not play well when delivered to a group of hobbyists and hardcore gun folks, but it may make him look "smarter" to a group of brand new shooters.

It does appear obvious that he would be far better served to keep his mouth closed when he is not operating in an area of expertise -- eventually, he'll learn this or he'll embarrass himself and eventually quit the "training" game.

To simply take one snippet we are hearing second hand and quickly deduce that nobody should take his training isn't exactly helpful. If the guy is simply "teaching" the state required minimum for a carry license and his price is low and this is the most painful part of it, there is a use for him in the market.
 
My own experience with 1911's and others tells me that all-metal guns need more attention to the amount and type of lubricate used.

How many times have we heard around here that a particular gun likes to run "wet" or "dry"? It's usually referring to a all-metal gun.
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We can agree to disagree Dashunde but some things are easily verified.

The point of lubrication, whether oil or grease, is to reduce the amount of friction between two moving parts. It also helps any dirt to migrate away from the areas of contact. But there is only, always, a very limited amount of space between the two moving parts.

Once the two working surfaces are coated in lube there is no more room for additional lube. The surplus is thrown off or runs off down the frame or coats the interior and exterior of the gun where it serves no purpose. So whether a gun is "run wet" or dry makes no difference to the operation of the gun as the extra lube migrates to places where it isn't needed and doesn't work it's way back. As long as the two surfaces have a thin coat of lube on them no more is needed or can be fit in. Those who like their guns to "run wet" are really looking to ensure that all critical areas that need lube are rapidly covered in that lube. But once covered the surplus lube runs off and serves no role. It only takes a minute or two to verify this for yourself. It's as true of guns as any other tool or device from waffle irons to motors.

The all metal gun usually does not require much more than an extra bit of lube than a poly framed gun. If any extra at all. Certainly not between the slide and frame.

The motion of the slide further forces excess dirt and grime out from between the frame and slide on both poly guns and steel guns. This also is easily observed first hand and we don't need to speculate on it. If anything the possibility of some bit of trash being embedded in the frame is greater with polymer framed guns. Though if this happens it is so rare and of little consequence as to be little commented on.

tipoc
 
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I have had both metal and polymer framed guns and can't say that I have had any reliability issues with either kind.

Guns are like anything mechanical. Keep them properly maintained and most all of them will serve you well. Neglect them and either will let you down.
 
Oh, the irony...

Apparently NOBODY has noticed the irony that we have now come full circle - we have encountered the exact opposite of the proverbial bazillion online threads (and gun rag letters and editorials, and LGS counter chit-chat) about how metal is the ONLY right and proper frame material, because polymer frames will SURELY all eventually dry-rot / melt / crack / break / warp / dissolve / run away / spontaneously combust / be eaten by special bacteria genetically modified by devious left-wingers? ;) :rolleyes:
 
Carguychris may be on to something. I've read on forums lately all the regular incorrect "knowledge" about metal guns being more finicky, needing more lube, requiring more attention, etc. More recently it's been warnings about rust. Your Sig P226 or S&W J frame will tend to rust if not cared for, lubed and stripped to a rigorous schedule.

I read a fella advise another to get a striker fired polymer gun because then he wouldn't have to worry about his gun rusting and jamming at a critical moment in a defensive confrontation. Apparently all the Gen 3 S&W's and Beretta 92's cops out here carry are rusted up tight in their holsters.

tipoc
 
You've all got it wrong. I only trust porcelain guns... a la Die Hard 2.

"Luggage? That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines here and it costs more than what you make in a month!"
―John McClane on the Glock 7.
 
you can polymerize monomers all day or trust you life with whatever element you want on the left side of the periodic table, but I will only trust a gun, a SELF-DEFENSE gun at that, to hyperdiamond or maybe "carbonado" if I am feeling lucky. if it isn't above 9.5 on the moh's scale, might as well throw it in the trash......
 
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