"All fall to hardball"

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Many of you seem to think that M&S are reciting the mantra of "fast and light" for everything. That's just not the case. I feel that they are reporting the real world observations as best as it can be done. The data shows several slower and heavier loads to be THEE best choice in certain calibers.
The 230gr JHP .45, the 158 LSWHPs in .38 and the 155 JHP .40 are placing at or near the top. If penetration was the Be All to End All, the 147gr 9mm wouldn't have the dismal street record that it does. The vaunted 125gr .357 would be at the bottom, and the 180gr .40 would be doing much better than it actually has.
As to their "reluctance" to reveal sources for the data, you must keep several things in mind. The police are quite tight lipped about officer involved shootings in general. It could mean your job, if you are the cop caught disseminating anything NOT found in the "official" press release. But, in the interest of fostering some possible life-saving knowledge, many do. M&S have been around for enough years that they've developed a trust with many of the major departments. Those that account for a lot of OIS.
 
Gentlemen;

Rather than waxing poetic or inundating you all with B.S. opinions or questionable facts, let me just refer you to my usual tag-line

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Uncle Jack

"If you put the first two where they belong, everything else is rhetoric and theory."
 
Color me stupid but I'll take a .45ACP ball over any 9mm +P hollowpoint any time. Forget about the "Berlin Bull Tests", the "Danang Donkey Trials" or any other theory out there. Look at what those who are in harm's way opt for. BTW, how many people do the Secret Service shoot each year? Why is it that even today, GI's will scrap for a .45ACP Pistol when it's possible to "find" one.

In my travels I am seeing more and more inner-city agencies in high crime areas using or going back to the .45. I even know of one State Trooper who carried .45 Ball in A Sig P220 before his employer went to the P229 in .357 Sig.

No caliber is foolproof but I have no qualms about the .45ACP 230 Grain Ball.


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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Will Beararms
You said you would take 45 ball over a +p 9mm jhp. That is a foolish choice my friend as the real world has shown ball ammo is a dysmal stopper yet +p 9mm jhp's are preaty good. I would feel better armed with a good 380 jhp than 45 ball.
PAT
 
Again, color me stupid but I will take any configuration of a .45ACP over a 9mm at any time.

When it comes to the other calibers, I will take the .45ACP 230 grain hydrashock over anything else at any time.

Pistols are not the be-all end-all but I will stick with the largest caliber that I can control.

Outside of a CNS hit, give me what will make the biggest hole causing the largest amount of blood loss.

The .45 is a natural as high caps become more and more scarce. When the supply of high caps dwindles to nothing, I predict you will see another resurgence of the popularity of the .45ACP among the US law-abiding public should the Lord tarry in his return.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
FMJ vs. hollowpoint; 9mm vs. .45; wheelgun vs. semi-auto; etc., etc., etc.......

2 reasons a DETERMINED aggressor ceases his attack: blood loss; or CNS disruption.

Bullet placement is key, and since a moving BG does not provide an easy target, the largest projectile one can carry comfortably adds that 'nth degree of size which might either contact a piece of the CNS, or leave a hole large enough to allow blood to flow more rapidly.

I carry a .45 (Glock), which has proven 100% reliable with holowpoints of my chosen brand...but if push come to shove, I'd rather carry a .50 or a 12 ga.(or bigger yet if I could get it!), but both print somethin' awful....... ;)
 
Once again,

Someone has to bring up temporary cavities and information that can't be backed up. So some agency went to the .357 Sig or 9mm or .45... Big deal! Where is all the data on the .357 Sig shootings or any other caliber. Oh, I forgot Marshall/Sanow have a monopoly on it. Let's see, where can I gather that information. Hmm. Here, M/S books, Dale Towert's stopping power page, and Gun rags all over the nation. That's about it, so when someone praises the magnificent stopping power characteristics of a round, they are simply regurgitating what they have read somewhere, and not information which the agencies have themselves published (because they usually don't).

The pathologist friend that someone mentioned is right, to a point. A round will cause substantial permanent damage WHEN IT REACHES A CERTAIN VELOCITY and stretches the tissue beyond its elasticity. It then rips the tissue. Handguns rounds generally are incapable of doing this except with inelastic tissues such as the liver. I talked with a combat surgeon (US Army) friend of mine, who had to do an internship in an LA emergency room. He stated that you couldn't tell the difference between the different handgun wounds, but that rifle wounds were devestating and turned the area to mush. Velocity does play a role, but again, handguns are generally incapable of reaching those velocities.

In any case, M/S can't fault the IWBA scientifically, but only with slurs and theories, nothing more. If M/S wanted to be honest they could simply relate case studies, not attempt to quantify it into an effectiveness database. When you read enough of them, you soon realize that given the right circumstances, anything can work, and everything will probably fail.

I'm still looking for reliable information on the .357 Sig, but so far all I've gotten are "it works because Texas DPS is happy with it and the Secret Service adopted it and someone's uncle said people stopped as if they were hit by lightning when shot with it, or some other such nonsense.

Too bad hunters are so ignorant, too. You'd think they'd start picking better rounds so that "hydrostatic shock" would stop the deer in their tracks and they wouldn't have to follow blood trails until hemorraghic shock sets in and the deer dropped. It must be terrible, hunting all day, tired and hoping that you'll hit the spine so that the deer will drop right then and there. Will somenone please help all those poor misguided hunters with pathetically unscientifice rounds. Please give their tired feet a break with a 90% one shot stop round that will stop a 160-200 pound deer in its tracks so they don't have to chase it. I know they are shooting rifles, but we have pistols and maybe that is our secret.

Obviously, hydrostatic shock only works on humans. Before anyone tells me I am comparing apples to oranges, please bear in mind that I am comparing living breathing humans to living breathing deer. Additionally, an apple is as incapable of recognizing that it has been shot as an orange, thus a comparison of the two for terminal ballistic purposes might be legitimate. On the other hand, a deer who watches TV might be predisposed to fall down after one hit, and thus might be more legitimately compared with a human for statistical purposes, whereas a Moro male who has never watched TV cannot be compared to an American male who has done little else but watch TV since childhood. Thus the fact that the Moro's did not always drop when hit by rifle fire is irrelevant in this present discussion.

No offense to anyone and regards to all :),

Chuck
 
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