"All fall to hardball"

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"I agree. I will test my my upgraded Norinco (when I get it back from the gunsmith) with 230 gr. Hydra-Shoks. I hope it functions with them. If it doesn't I will use hardball. I attended Thunder Ranch last month and most of the instructors including Mr. Smith swear by hardball. They have a lot more experience than I do. I don't know."

If you gun comes back and wont work with a good JHP then get rid of it its not worth it or make it a plinker only status. Ball ammo does not work. I know of a good cop that died because 4 rounds of 45 ball ammo did not work. Ball ammo does very little tissue damadge and has next to no energy transfer. Don't believe the crap that crap that comes from cooper and the like that they all fall to hardball. Because its a lie.
PAT


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I intend to go into harms way.
 
Shok
You have been reading too much of the IWBA crap. Handguns can and do creat stretch cavitys that contribute to stopping power. The 357 mag has a huge success rate attributed to its large stretch cavity. Large stretch cavitys can cause a blood bressure spike that shuts the body down. I can punch you in the solar phlexes and not penitrate one inch yet the shock cause immediate incapicitation
PAT
 
"They all fall to hardball", eh? Just because it rhymes doesn't mean it's true (someone tell that to Jessie Jackson, please).

All pistol rounds are feeble. Placement is paramount. While there are loads that I would prefer, I would not feel unarmed with a pistol loaded with .45ACP ball.

Rosco
 
Reliability, accuracy, penetration, expansion, in that order. Hardball fullfills the first three, which makes it the perfect military round. Which is to say that it may not make the perfect personal defense round.
Stop worshiping at the alter of Marshall &Sannow, as they don't even use their own data to select their own carry ammo!!! How's that for creadibility? You carry this because my data says so, but I'm gonna use something that I believe works better!! I don't understand.
Me, I'm using Golden Sabers or HydraShoks

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
 
Why use obsolete technology if you don't have to? *IF* you test your firearm with a modern hollow-point cartridge and it functions well, then USE IT! If it isn't 100% then stick to ball, but go for the best if you can.

Not to say that this is the end-all and be-all, but you might find it interesting:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

C.B.

p.s. Some people might say that of the 1911 too...but not me and my new Kimber Classic Stainless Target! :)

[This message has been edited by CastleBravo (edited May 05, 2000).]
 
I'm thinking if you put a couple of .45 holes in somebody's chest they aren't going to be doing to well. If I remember the tests they said that 45 hardball delivers somewhere in the 60% range one shot stops. While, if they don't go down at the first shot, keep shooting until they do.
 
I would not feel significantly underarmed carrying a FMJ round, but would be especially concerned for potential friendlies in the area, as I believe shoot-through could be a problem. (My carry round for my .40 is a 155-grain XTP that does 1175 fps out of my '23.)
 
355sigfan, I don't believe that the Colonel ever said, "They all fall to hardball." I've never read anything of his that emphasized either hardball or hp's. He did, however, emphasize the need to carry "the largest caliber that you can control." Why do I carry a .45? Same reason that Cooper does. "Because they don't make a .46!"
 
I don't care if I have hardball or Hydro-shoks or, heck you pick it. Two in the belly and one in the head as fast as you can accurately do it.
Paul B.

[This message has been edited by Paul B. (edited May 05, 2000).]
 
As far as the stories of vets saved by .45 hardball go, one can hear stories of people who have been saved by every caliber from .22 LR to .600 Nitro Express and everything in between. If one was about to have ones "ticket punched" and managed to dispatch the threat with a particular caliber of firearm, one can be forgiven for having a strong (if somewhat prejudiced) attachment to that round for the remainder of ones life.

Interesting point: the "Big Three" in any mortuary, responsible for the vast majority of firearms deaths are .22LR, .38spl, and 12GA. Much like GM and Anheuser-Busch are involved in a majority of DUI-related fatalities. 9mm ball has killed more people than .45 ACP ever has or will, but then 9mm ball has been shot at a lot more people, too...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Jack99,

"Put a round in the center of a man's chest..."

Actually, lots of handgun rounds have been known to fail to penetrate the breast bone in the adult human.

A handgun's not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Even more incidents have occurred where someone (police, civie, otherwise) has put one or more rounds into the K5 with powerful and effective rounds and still gotten their clocks cleaned. It can take time for a human to expire and/or cease an attack.

That's why if you shoot once, you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.
 
CastleBravo,

"Why use obsolete technology if you don't have to? *IF* you test your firearm with a modern hollow-point cartridge and it functions well, then USE IT! If it isn't 100% then stick to ball, but go for the best if you can."

Actually, in many cases the "obsolete technology" is still more effective than the newest "hyperwhizbangspalsuperXpando bullet."

A hollowpoint that expands well, but fails to reliably penetrate to a vital zone, is next to useless. You've now given your attacker a nasty, nasty, non-critical wound. What next?

That's why a cartridge's utter reliability in your gun isn't the only consideration. Reliability of the bullet in producing wounds necessary to stop an attack is the other critical factor.
 
Spectre,

When is the last time you heard about a bullet completely penetrating the intended target and zapping the little old grandma half a block down the street?

I've been shooting for nearly 25 years, and have yet to hear of a single confirmed case of that happening.

What I DO hear of from time to time, though, is someone TOTALLY missing the intended target and winging someone down the street.

I think overpenetration is really a smokescreen, possibly dreamed up by the hollowpoint manufacturers. It's not, and really shouldn't be, a consideration or problem.

Missing your intended target? Yeah, now that's a BIG problem. :)
 
Large holes in vital organs. Period. Use what you practice with the most and are reliable in your gun. 230-gr JHP's? If they feed reliably, use them. You can't go wrong with Federal, Remington, Winchester, etc. Find a load that prints close to the ball ammo you shoot the most. JHP's do have greater incapacitation, and that's why all the Federal and Law Enforcement Agencies use them. For shorter barrel 45's, Use the 185-gr+P's to compensate.

Best,
Hann
 
It happens more often than you think Mike.

The cool thing about the .45 ACP FMJ is that it has a lot of mass and weight. Compare it to a Mack truck. The .45 ACP is a Mack truck. Very slow, yet when it hits you, it delivers a mighty blow. It's called inertia. The weight and surface area of the bullet cause greater inertia.
 
Pete80,

I'm assuming you're addressing me when I was asking about through and through penetration with the bulleting hitting someone beyond the target... If not, and you were referring to someone else, I do apologize.

But, I'll repeat what I said, in that in 25 years of shooting, I've never heard of a single documented case of this happening, and ask you to cite specific examples of complete penetration of a target resulting in the bullet wounding another, unintended, individual.

Sure, there may well be a few, and I'd like to know about them.

With pure misses it happens, but not at all frequently, either.

I do truly think that this is really an overblown, or at least overstated, "problem."
 
We have strayed a bit from one point made early on in this thread. The original poster said that Clint Smith and his instructors swear by the .45 and hardball ammo. I have taken a class from Clint and he told us the same thing. However, his reasoning had nothing to do with anything discussed here. He, like Cooper, believes in carrying the biggest caliber you can. But, his choice of hardball ammo had nothing to do with wound effectiveness or reliability (he can afford the most expensive .45 around!). He recommended it for LEGAL reasons, much as Massad Ayoob does. Hollowpoint ammo is often seen by juries as "cop-killer" ammo. Ball ammo is what our army has been using since its invention. That was why Clint (and others) recommend hardball. Plus, it really is effective.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buzz_knox:
I'd be real careful before saying that nobody thinks that Sanow's/Marshall's data is inaccurate.[/quote]

Ha! I'm not gullible enough to feed into the Marshall/Sanow study. The study reads like an endorsement for Triton or Corbon, nothing more.

A wise man once said, "don't believe everything you read, son... if you do you're a fool."

I carry a .45...I carry the 230gr. JHP load that my gun shoots most accurately. I don't care who makes it.

If it expands, it expands. If not, it will mimic 230gr. ball.

Rather than sit around and believe everything I read, I prefer to train. The most effective ammunition isn't worth a damn if you can't hit your target.

[This message has been edited by dvc (edited May 06, 2000).]
 
I'm going out in a little bit to have dinner with some friends. They got a new BBQ, and it's hotter than heck in DC today...

I'll be carrying my mouse gun, my Taurus TP-22...

I expect to be attacked by hoards of mice while eating on the patio... :)

They really do have a mouse problem... :D
 
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