Alec Baldwin update

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Interesting, had not fully considered The captain of the ship angle , make perfect sense .

I will also add it was reported the only reason the armorer was not on scene ( in the room ) was do to covid protocol on set and maybe throughout the industry at the time . Something to the effect of social distancing kind of thing . Based on size of space and number of people in the building . No that does not seem reasonable to me either . Armorer should have precedent on set but as we know covid caused many people to go into full brain fart mode as it relates to rules and common sense .
 
Seems like one giant hate fest of Baldwin is driving emotions and not rational analysis and everyone is wanting him to be convicted without really looking at repercussions or past events.

Once he gets convicted like so many want, are we now good with law enforcement being charge criminally when there is a death during training? How about military personnel? These are two areas where there are truly trained personnel that “should know”,but still have fatal training accidents with firearms or other munitions.
 
Seems like one giant hate fest of Baldwin is driving emotions and not rational analysis and everyone is wanting him to be convicted without really looking at repercussions or past events.

Once he gets convicted like so many want, are we now good with law enforcement being charge criminally when there is a death during training? How about military personnel? These are two areas where there are truly trained personnel that “should know”,but still have fatal training accidents with firearms or other munitions.
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I think there is something to be said for your point as well. A legal eagle on CNN made the comment that prosecution is going to have a tough time since they can't even establish how the lethal cartridge made it into the gun to begin with. We'll see. I can't imagine pointing a weapon in any state at someone unless you were ready to kill. I was once asked to do that during the filming of a popular program, even after confirming the weapon was empty, and I still refused to do it. Because the consequences are so high if there is even the slightest chance for error, there has to be someone responsible for maintaining that highest standard of safety. It may be arguable who that is in Baldwin's case, but the oenus appears to be on him to attribute who that is.
 
Metal god said:
I will also add it was reported the only reason the armorer was not on scene ( in the room ) was do to covid protocol on set and maybe throughout the industry at the time . Something to the effect of social distancing kind of thing .
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No, that's not the reason.

The reason is that she had to wear two hats. In addition to being the armorer, Guttierez-Reed was also the assistant property master, and she had complained on multiple occasions that the assistant property master role interfered with performing the armorer role properly. It has also been reported in numerous articles that older, more experienced armorers turned down the assignment because of the dual role nature. They obviously knew that the armorer can't also be running around playing assistant property master while trying to keep track of God knows how many guns there must be on the set of a western.

She was on the site. She just wasn't at the church set -- which is where the guns were. And the applicable industry standards were that if the guns were there, the armorer should have been there with them.
 
Here are the first four rules for gun safety from page 14 of the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) manual for safety on a set:


Bulletin #1, Firearms
GENERAL SAFE USE AND HANDLING OF FIREARMS
1. Refrain from pointing a firearm at anyone, including yourself. If it is absolutely necessary to do so on camera, consult the Property Master (or, in his/her absence, the weapons handler and/or other appropriate personnel determined by the locality or the needs of the production) or other safety representative, such as the First A.D./Stage Manager. Remember that any object at which you point a firearm could be destroyed.

2. NEVER place your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot. Keep your finger alongside the firearm and off the trigger.

3. KNOW where and what your intended target is.

4. DO NOT engage in horseplay with any firearms.

It appears that Baldwin broke several, if not all four.

Here's the definition of involuntary manslaughter from the New Mexico code:

2019 New Mexico Statutes
Chapter 30 - Criminal Offenses
Article 2 - Homicide
Section 30-2-3 - Manslaughter.
Universal Citation: NM Stat § 30-2-3 (2019)

Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.

.....
B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.

Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.

Here's the definition tailored to this situation:
B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission ... of a lawful act which might produce death ....without due caution and circumspection.

It's pretty hard to argue that Baldwin acted with due caution and circumspection.
 
She had to wear to hats , i disagree . Yes she had two “jobs” on set but my understanding of reports that was simply a speculation as to why but not the actual reason . The report or account I heard was she was not aloud in so was doing the other job . Not did not go in and hand the gun to Alic because she was doing something else .

The above bolded section seems to indicate the armorer followed protocols as it relates to giving the firearm to the correct person if she was not able to hand the gun directly to the actor . So now it seems her liability now lies on how she stored the ammo and how she knew what ammo was real , blanks or dummy .
 
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Metal god said:
The above bolded section seems to indicate the armorer followed protocols as it relates to giving the firearm to the correct person if she was not able to hand the gun directly to the actor . So now it seems her liability now lies on how she stored the ammo and how she knew what ammo was real , blanks or dummy .
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She didn't "give" the revolver in question to Halls. All reports I have seen said that there were several similar revolvers left unattended on a cart. That's definitely a violation of industry safety protocols.
 
Post by jmr40: "Actors have been pointing real guns at each other and shooting blanks at each other since the 1st movies were made. "

They do a great job at making it so appear, but (1) blanks can kill, and (2) SAG rules forbid such things.
 
are we now good with law enforcement being charge criminally when there is a death during training?
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Well, yes. A life is lost due to someone's negligence. That's why we have the pesky four rules and the SAG has theirs: to prevent tragedies like this.

All reports I have seen said that there were several similar revolvers left unattended on a cart.
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This is where things are weird with that armorer. Apparently, she took one of the revolvers off site to do some target shooting the prior day. That might explain how live ammo got on set. Why were the guns not locked up while the armorer was off site? That's another good question.

This whole thing comes down to a chain of negligence that's just astounding the more I read into it.
 
A wreck often has more than one responsible party. Its often the case that if just one of them had done things right the wreck may have just been a close call.
We have incomplete information, but my impression is that Armorer Guttierez was not strong in her security and "chain of custody" processes.
As far as "Doing what she was told to do" sometimes you have to make choices. If I was an aircraft mechanic ordered to put an unsafe aircraft in the air, I'd like to think I'd refuse,even if it meant getting fired. If we don't maintain security on our firearms (including me and you) we might play a significant part in someone getting killed. A kid,maybe.

Of your Armorer walks can you keep on filming with firearms,or is that a shut down?

I'm inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt as far as loading live ammo. (For no good reason) But I'm inclined to think she may have been generally sloppy.(For equally no good reason) Three handguns on a cart,one inert,one blanks only and one fully functional was the report I read somewhere. No one supervising?

Lets not forget 1) There was informal target shooting which means live ammo was accessible. Management has to own that one. Did Baldwin take part?
What was chain of custody between the plinking and the gun cart?

2) Same day,disgruntled crew staged a walk-off, as I heard it,at least in part over firearms safety/discharges. I can't ignore then possibility an angry,irrational crew member pocketed a round at the plinking session then later loaded it into an "unloaded" gun. A passive/aggressive wake up call.. I'd use that if I were a defense attorney.
Except safety protocols would have kept Halya alive and unharmed had they been followed,even with a sabotaged gun.
It has happened that gunshow looky-loos have looked at a gun and secretly loaded it,then put it back on the table.

The attitude "The ends justify the means" is not so rare.

3) If Baldwin wanted to "Improv" that day, why the fully functional handgun? Thats another deadly decision. A "blank firing only" prop gun was available, allegedly. Why have non firing props if not for "improv?"

The Assistant Director? Handed Baldwin the loaded gun and told him it was cold. He got a plea deal.
Either this AD needs to stand up and say "This is my fault. I called "Cold Gun" without checking"

Or Baldwin is criminally negligent for trusting an incompetent bimbo with such a life and death call.
" OK,Halya, the incompetent bimbo AD (non armorer) told me this gun is unloaded so I'm going to point it at you and thumb the hammer back..."

Good idea? ( I don't give a flip about pulling the trigger. Does it matter? All the steps leading up to that point matter.)

"I didn't know the gun was loaded! " is hardly original. I think the word got out on that one.

Tom Mix,Andy Divine, Gene Autry, Barbara Stanwyck,Hopalong Cassidy, Cleavon Little and Gene Wilder, Jimmy Stewart,John Wayne,Jack Palance,Yul Brynner,Steve McQueen,Clint, Paldin, Jack Elam, Slim Pickens,The entire cast of the Wild Bunch, etc all managed to make movies without killing anyone.

So what is "special" about Alec Baldwin ?
 
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Aguila Blanca said:
She didn't "give" the revolver in question to Halls. All reports I have seen said that there were several similar revolvers left unattended on a cart. That's definitely a violation of industry safety protocols.
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That's my understanding as well. Early in the reporting of this incident, I'm sure I read the Armorer was directed to leave the guns on a cart, outside the set, because of Covid precautions. I'm also pretty sure I read she tried to get Baldwin to show up for some safety training, related to cross-draw, and he refused.

My recall on these (and other) matters may be imperfect ;)
 
natman said:
Here are the first four rules for gun safety from page 14 of the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) manual for safety on a set:
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Did you rear the page the precedes this one?

How about the rest of the information in this safety bulletin:

5. NEVER discharge a firearm when the barrel is clogged. The Property Master (or, in his/her absence, the weapons handler and/or other appropriate personnel determined by the locality or the needs of the production) should inspect the firearm and barrel before and after every firing sequence.

6. UTILIZE all safety devices until the firearm is ready to be used.

7. NEVER lay down a firearm or leave it unattended. Unless actively filming or rehearsing, all firearms should be safely secured.

8. ONLY a qualified person shall perform hand loading or altering factory loaded blank ammunition to work on firearms (either licensed or experienced). Check with local, state and federal regulations to see if a specific license is required.

9. NO PERSON is to be coaxed, coerced, or otherwise forced into handling a firearm.

10. The jamming of firearms or any malfunctions must be reported immediately to the Property Master (or, in his/her absence, the weapons handler and/or other appropriate personnel determined by the locality or the needs of the production). Do not attempt to adjust, modify, repair. or un-jam the firearm. Malfunctioning firearms should be taken out of service until properly repaired by a person qualified to work on firearms.

11. Protective shields, eye, and hearing protection or other appropriate Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) shall be issued and utilized by all personnel in close proximity and/or directly in the line of fire.

12. The Studio safety and Security Departments are to be notified prior to any firearm use on studio property.

13. All personnel should remain a set safe distance from the weapon firing area (to be determined by the Property Master (or, in his/her absence, the weapons handler and/or other appropriate personnel determined by the locality or the needs of the production), Stunt Coordinator and/or designated Studio safety Representative) to ensure personal safety from blank debris and hot ejected blank casings.

14. All local, state and federal laws and regulations are applicable and can override these guidelines jf they are more stringent.
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Immediately following these guidelines is a set of things the property master or weapons handler (I guess that would be the armorer) is responsible for. Among them:

11. The personal loading of firearms or the personal designation of an experienced person working under his or her immediate supervision to load the firearms. Firearms are to be loaded just before they are used in a scene. [This didn't happen]

16. Checking all firearms before each use. All firearms must be cleaned, checked and inventoried at the close of each day's shooting. [This didn't happen.]

Page 1 of the safety bulletin you cited includes a requirement that "No one shall be issued a firearm until he or she is trained in safe handling, safe use, the safety lock, and proper firing procedures." Can you imagine a 24-year-old girl trying to tell Alec Baldwin that he can't have the gun until she has reviewed how it works with him?
 
Alec Baldwin might be a difficult case, but can they proceed with making the movie if the Armorer walks off?

So maybe the Armorer gets "reviewed" by the screen actors guild.. I hope so! Then Baldwins management is revealed.

As far as resisting policy, I'm 70 yrs old and grey. At 7-11 or a grocery store.I still have to produce ID to prove I am 21 in order to buy a 6 of barley pop.
I just do it.

If I want to shoot at an indoor range, I will have to review safety and sign off.

Or I might later say " I didn't know it was loaded!! See here,Sir! I did not get up today intending to shoot Halya!"
 
I feel a lot of this info is being comingled . I'm sure I read somewhere the armorer handed the gun directly to the AD . Was that from a table full of guns IDK , was there a table full of guns at some point on set , I'm sure there was . Was it the same day and time of the incident IDK . I don't trust any reporting on this case or any other for that matter especially if it involves firearms . Reporters have shown time and time again how little they understand about firearms and shown recently how little they are willing to dig to find the truth . They take one persons word for it or some other reporters word as gospel .

I'll add I followed this very close when it first happened and basing what I've been saying on memory . I could be pulling a H. Clinton and misremembering what I read .
 
HiBC said:
As far as resisting policy, I'm 70 yrs old and grey. At 7-11 or a grocery store.I still have to produce ID to prove I am 21 in order to buy a 6 of barley pop.
I just do it.

If I want to shoot at an indoor range, I will have to review safety and sign off.
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Not at all analogous. On this movie, Baldwin was the star, the script writer, and and executive producer. In other words, he was THE boss.
 
Tom Servo said:
Well, yes. A life is lost due to someone's negligence. That's why we have the pesky four rules and the SAG has theirs: to prevent tragedies like this.



This is where things are weird with that armorer. Apparently, she took one of the revolvers off site to do some target shooting the prior day. That might explain how live ammo got on set. Why were the guns not locked up while the armorer was off site? That's another good question.

This whole thing comes down to a chain of negligence that's just astounding the more I read into it.
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Noticed you only quoted one portion of my post where I mention one group where fatal training accidents occurred and you feel that group should be criminally charged but not the other. So do think military training accidents get a free pass?

Just so we are clear there are numerous firearm accidents where people are killed and the person who pulled the trigger was known, an investigation was conducted, the person interviewed and then no criminal charges brought forward by prosecutors. This is not a new thing. Funny how when we don’t like someone and they do something wrong we want them punished to the full extent even though others in the same or very similar situations are not punished.
 
Funny how when we don’t like someone and they do something wrong we want them punished to the full extent even though others in the same or very similar situations are not punished.
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Funny how someone else in the same or very similar situation may not meet the legal requirements of negligence and so no charges are brought....

There is so much contradictory information about what happened, its impossible to be certain of many facts at this point, hopefully this matter will go to trial and sworn testimony will help explain things.

Among the contradictions are.

The armorer was not present due to Covid restrictions OR...
The armorer was not present due to having been sent by mgt to a different location to do property management tasks.

the armorer got the guns (loaded them????) left them on a cart or table and was else where when the actors took them

OR
the armorer was elsewhere and mgt sent someone else to get the guns and bring them to the set...

OR, or or or or or....

the list is large. A few points are not in dispute,
The gun was in Baldwin's hands when it fired, the firearm was under his control
they were on a set but were not filming..

Numerous gun safety and industry safety rules were ignored or short cuts taken.

Baldwin, as Producer/director, and every other hat he wore in the production has a degree of responsibility for everything that his management allowed to happen on the set.
 
There is one thing that bothers me about the charges that I would really like to hear from the local legal eagles about:

Why is the armorer, who without any dispute did NOT shoot anyone, being charge with the same charge as Baldwin, who without dispute DID shoot someone?
 
Not a legal eagle, but here's my guess....

My guess is that the DA believes the evidence supports that her negligence in failing to properly control the firearms and ammunition on the set significantly contributed to the accident.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. Thanks to so much conflicting and unofficial information we can't accurately judge (at this time) whether she was negligent due to lack of personal responsibility (which would support the charges) or if she was negligent due to management preventing her from properly carrying out her duties. Either, or both are possible at this point, we can't tell.
 
I'm sort of thinking along the same lines.

But I can't get by that she had no part in aiming, cocking and firing the gun at another person. Only Baldwin has that unique responsibility.

No matter how negligent she was, it was Baldwin, and Baldwin alone, that shot 2 people.

It is indeed interesting to see how this shakes out.

[edit]The horrific tragedy in all of this is that if Baldwin had adhered to any one of the 4 rules that we all (hopefully) live by, this would have been a non-event and we wouldn't even know about it.
 
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