AG nominee "unsure" about waterboarding

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Expediency for personal survival and gain isn't really what folks mean by 'moral'. It is taking the hit but maintaining principle that stakes out the high ground.
It isn't expediency; it's necessity. People keep forgetting that fact. And why is it more moral to "take the hit" when you have a moral obligation to protect the lives of innocent people? If the high ground is "taking the hit," the higher ground is saving innocent lives.
Be honest. If I tortured someone to save my child, I will admit that I violate some of my abstract moral principles knowingly. I won't claim that the act was not in violation of moral principles against torture. Utilitarian arguments don't make for a strong moral code.
Why must the moral high ground be all or nothing?

We teach kids that lying is immoral. But then we tell lies to serve higher moral purposes. We tell a thief that his accomplices have already fingered him, so he might as well confess so he can get a lighter sentence. Truth is, his accomplices have not confessed, and we're telling them the same thing. The higher moral purpose is to get evidence to convict the thieves so they don't victimize others. It's immoral to confine someone, but we do it with convicts to serve the higher moral purpose of keeping them from victimizing others.

Why is it moral to kill a terrorist on the battlefield, but immoral to waterboard him to save multiple lives? When you kill him, you destroy all he ever was and will ever be. When you waterboard him, he suffers no permanent damage and may go on to reform himself. Even if he were to suffer an injury, perhaps permanent blindness from oxygen deprivation, it's still possible he could go on to live a reformed, productive life. Lots of blind people live productive lives. However, by definition, dead people don't. But somehow, killing him is more moral than waterboarding him.

These are not utilitarian arguments. Moral people would not ordinarily lie to, confine, or kill their fellow human beings. These are moral choices made out of necessity. We make them every day and are comfortable with them every day because of necessity. You couldn't have a viable society without such choices.

Moral choices do not all peacefully coexist on an equal basis. There are times when one moral choice conflicts with another moral choice.
I take it then the waterboarder fans here again would also all these techniques to be used on Americans in times of an American generated terrorist crisis.
You'd have to develop guidelines, which is what I've advocated from the beginning. But we shouldn't be stuck in the past.

We now have aerial and electronic means of surveillance undreamt of in the 1700s when the Constitution was penned. We use those means in law enforcement, and we've worked on guidelines to keep those uses within our Constitutional framework. We now face new threats undreamt of in the 1700s that require us (again, necessity) to develop new ways of dealing with them.

Torturing people by ripping off their fingernails is cruel because, for one thing, it isn't necessary. Other techniques, such as waterboarding, are just as effective and are less harmful (and arguably not harmful at all). Torturing by ripping off the fingernails of low-level schmoes who don't have the info you need, or waterboarding those same schmoes, is cruel for the same reason: It isn't necessary. These issues can be solved.
 
Expediency for personal survival and gain isn't really what folks mean by 'moral'. It is taking the hit but maintaining principle that stakes out the high ground.
According to this statement, if a murderer breaks into my home and threatens to kill me, I’m acting immorally if I kill him in self-defense, because my act is “expediency for personal survival” and not what folks really mean by “moral.”

If that works for you, go for it. It doesn’t work for me.

I believe I have a moral obligation to defend myself. That moral obligation may be a lesser obligation if I have to choose between my life and my wife’s life, in which case my higher moral obligation is to defend her instead. But that doesn’t mean I never have a moral obligation to defend myself. It simply means what I’ve said before: Not all moral choices peacefully co-exist on the same level. Sometimes you must choose between conflicting moral choices.

For me, the moral obligations I owe to terrorists are lower than the moral obligations I owe to innocent people. If that doesn’t make sense to you, then I don’t know what else to say to you on this topic.
 
I agree with you to some extent Whyte. You certainly have a right to self defense, including the use of lethal force. But I am not sure you have a right to torture someone in order to prevent a future attack on you.

For example, if you have reason to believe that someone is going to break in on you and murder you tomorrow night, you really would not have any right to waterboard them today until they told you what time they were coming over.
 
For example, if you have reason to believe that someone is going to break in on you and murder you tomorrow night, you really would not have any right to waterboard them today until they told you what time they were coming over.
True. But I'm not advocating indiscriminate use of any techniques of any kind. Never have, never will, and have actually argued against it.

If you have reason to believe that someone is going to break in on you and murder you tomorrow night, you really would not have any right to go to his home and kill him under the claim of self-defense. In that situation, your best bet would be to go to the police with your evidence and then find someplace else to go while the police handled the situation.

Assuming you have sufficient evidence for probable cause, the police could arrest that person and investigate the situation. Assuming you have sufficient evidence only for reasonable suspicion, the police could go to that person and conduct an investigation, they just couldn't arrest him (yet).

However, we conduct preventative police and military operations of all kinds all the time. For example, if we know insurgents are gathering so they can strike our troops, we will do everything we can to hit first. But we don't conduct such strikes willy-nilly. We do our research, and usually we are correct.

Terrorism, either foreign or domestic, is substantially different from that example. Those are the differences we need to identify and use to guide our policies and approaches.
 
The most common practice currently is avoiding the dirty work ourselves by handing suspected terrorists to Iraqi Intelligence or Iraqi Police. And believe me, you don't even want to know what they do to them. It's sad, really. There is no question they torture the sh*t out of them.
 
Do those of you who support waterboarding consider yourselves religious people? I am just curious, and not trying to make a value judgement. I am just curious as to whether there is any correlation between supporting waterboarding and religion, or lack thereof?
 
Actually WhyteP38, in some cases you could make the argument that 1) if waterboarding is OK for interrogating terrorists it is OK for interrogating US criminals and in special circumstances, witnesses to crimes in the US.

For instance, many gangs threaten the lives of witnesses to their crimes which is one reason why neighborhoods w/ serious gang problems seem to have intractable gang problems. THere is also the "stop snitching" group of people who on general principle don't cooperate w/ law enforcement as well. Since this is a special case that requires tougher methods than usual for gathering evidence it is reasonable for investigators to grab any potential witnesses nearby the scene of a gang-related crime and give them the waterboard treatment. Without the waterboard witnesses won't talk which prevents investigators from gathering the evidence they need to make arrests, right?
 
Actually, I bet we would save more lives per year by waterboarding gang members and witnesses who refuse to talk, than we save each year by waterboarding terrorist suspects.

If waterboarding is not torture and is OK to do to terror suspects, what would keep it from being applied to US citizens?
 
I suggest that anyone who is nominated for the post undergo waterboarding so that they can then make an ACCURATE assessment of the technique..if they refuse to undergo the procedure..then we can safely assume that they view it as torture.
 
I suggest that anyone who is nominated for the post undergo waterboarding so that they can then make an ACCURATE assessment of the technique..if they refuse to undergo the procedure..then we can safely assume that they view it as torture.

Which, as mentioned before, will still not be the same: undergoing a procedure like this voluntarily, for what will presumably be a limited time (and presumably having the choice to "quit" at any point), is not the same as being imprisoned and undergoing it possibly multiple times (and without knowing how many more it will happen, or if you will ever be released).

Much the same way (though not exactly, of course) consensual sex is not the same as rape. Out of respect for those with tender sensibilities I'll be vague, but I imagine after talking to a gay man and a man who had a less than pleasant time in prison you'd find that the circumstances surrounding an experience can have just as much to do with the damage done (especially psychologically) as the experience itself. It can make a world of difference.
 
Actually WhyteP38, in some cases you could make the argument that 1) if waterboarding is OK for interrogating terrorists it is OK for interrogating US criminals and in special circumstances, witnesses to crimes in the US.
Moral equivalency in action leads to moral equivalency inaction.

We’re talking in the context of terrorism. We’re talking in the context of interrogating people who are actively involved in committing terrorist acts, whether in the past, the present, or imminently pending. Why anyone would drag witnesses into the mix is beyond me.

For someone like McVeigh, waterboarding may be okay. The problem with a McVeign situation is that the terrorist group pretty much began and ended with him and one other person (whose name escapes me). If there’s no imminent threat to head off, there’s no need for waterboarding.
For instance, many gangs threaten the lives of witnesses to their crimes which is one reason why neighborhoods w/ serious gang problems seem to have intractable gang problems. THere is also the "stop snitching" group of people who on general principle don't cooperate w/ law enforcement as well. Since this is a special case that requires tougher methods than usual for gathering evidence it is reasonable for investigators to grab any potential witnesses nearby the scene of a gang-related crime and give them the waterboard treatment. Without the waterboard witnesses won't talk which prevents investigators from gathering the evidence they need to make arrests, right?
Again, the necessity factor applies. We already have a means of handling these situations, plus, gangs don’t normally seek to light-off nukes or other weapons of mass destruction.
I suggest that anyone who is nominated for the post undergo waterboarding so that they can then make an ACCURATE assessment of the technique..if they refuse to undergo the procedure..then we can safely assume that they view it as torture.
Based on this reasoning, everyone who wants to be a judge should first be incarcerated in a maximum security prison before they can claim it’s not cruel or unusual punishment.
Which, as mentioned before, will still not be the same: undergoing a procedure like this voluntarily, for what will presumably be a limited time (and presumably having the choice to "quit" at any point), is not the same as being imprisoned and undergoing it possibly multiple times (and without knowing how many more it will happen, or if you will ever be released).
First, who cares whether they volunteered to be waterboarded? Should we apply this same standard to rapists? They didn't volunteer to go to prison, and being caught and convicted is not a certainty, so we can't incarcerate them? Second, terrorists volunteer to be terrorists. Like rapists, they assume the risk. Third, why is it more moral to kill them than to waterboard them?

Ask any reasonable person whether they’d rather be waterboarded or killed. I doubt you’ll find any who prefer being killed.

The idea that it’s morally better to kill them than to waterboard them is logically and morally backwards.
 
But what about the psychological damage that is done to the insane terrorists who hate us and want to kill us?!? :eek:

P.S. Terrorists are not like ordinary criminals and should not be treated as ordinary criminals. Which is why we should waterboard terrorists, but not ordinary criminals.
 
Actually, I bet we would save more lives per year by waterboarding gang members and witnesses who refuse to talk, than we save each year by waterboarding terrorist suspects.
Or do it to Congressmen when they try to spend money. :D
 
First, who cares whether they volunteered to be waterboarded? Should we apply this same standard to rapists? They didn't volunteer to go to prison, and being caught and convicted is not a certainty, so we can't incarcerate them? Second, terrorists volunteer to be terrorists. Like rapists, they assume the risk. Third, why is it more moral to kill them than to waterboard them?

This isn't really what I was getting at. I was just pointing out that the idea that some people have that they know what being involuntarily waterboarded (or whatever other method we might discuss) because they've undergone it voluntarily is ludicrous. A police officer may have been tased as a requirement to wield one...he still wouldn't know what it's like to be held in a cell for a year [EDIT: or even a week, especially if you don't know when/if you'll be released] and tased a few times a day at random. It just doesn't work that way.

That is all I was saying there.

Ask any reasonable person whether they’d rather be waterboarded or killed. I doubt you’ll find any who prefer being killed.

Um...okay....

The idea that it’s morally better to kill them than to waterboard them is logically and morally backwards.

We kill suspects in custody without first giving them a trial?
 
But what about the psychological damage that is done to the insane terrorists who hate us and want to kill us?!?
True. It might damage their self-esteem. And then they might not reach their true potential. Plus, it's not really their fault; it's ours. If the US didn't exist, everyone would be hugging, laughing, and eating lotus blossoms. The Taliban would not have destroyed Buddhist temples, Muslim extremists would not have killed Hindus, and Islamic Chechnians would not have shot Russian children in their backs.
 
We kill suspects in custody without first giving them a trial?
RIF = Reading Is Fundamental. Who said anything about killing suspects in custody?

We kill terrorists on the battlefields. You do believe that's moral, don't you? So why is it moral to kill them on the battlefield but immoral to waterboard them after capture if necessity dictates?

To waterboard them after capture is moral if it is NECESSARY. Why do people assume that once a terrorist is captured, he's no longer a part of the threat? A terrorist who knows about an upcoming terrorist attack that could kill hundreds or thousands of people, and does not tell us about that attack, is someone who is still at war with us.
 
We kill terrorists on the battlefields. You do believe that's moral, don't you? So why is it moral to kill them on the battlefield but immoral to waterboard them after capture if necessity dictates?

Because I don't think what's appropriate on a battlefield is appropriate in a custody situation? I wouldn't want us killing them in custody, either.
 
But what about the psychological damage that is done to the insane terrorists who hate us and want to kill us?!?

You know, I don't really care about the psychological damage torture does to the terrorists. The terrorists are beyond salvation. I care about the psychological damage torture does to the American people. We pride ourselves in being the shining moral example the rest of the world should emulate. We fight for freedom and liberty. We live the American Dream. Our self image is tarnished when we torture others. There is no way we can be as proud of ourselves knowing we have stooped to the level of torturing others. We should lead the world with a sense of righteousness and honor. Torture is not a tactic we should employ, and it is disgraceful to even consider. The fact that we are even discussing the use of torture techniques is a symptom of the decay of our own morality and society.
 
Because I don't think what's appropriate on a battlefield is appropriate in a custody situation? I wouldn't want us killing them in custody, either.
Again, no one has suggested what's appropriate on a battlefield is appropriate in a custody situation. Custody is a different situation than the battlefield, calling for different actions.

People are talking about waterboarding without providing any context. If you're not going to consider context, you are basically saying killing a terrorist is moral, but waterboarding a terrorist is immoral. That's backwards logically and morally.

Put the situation in context, and it becomes clearer.

Killing a terrorist right before he physically activates a bomb is necessary and moral. Killing a terrorist as he sits in a cell is unnecessary and immoral.

Waterboarding a terrorist who likely has information about an upcoming mass attack is necessary and moral. Waterboarding a terrorist who doesn't likely have information about an upcoming mass attack is unnecessary and immoral.
 
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