Aftermath of a shooting (my story)

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You make a good point Tennesee Gentleman,
However, didn't divemedica say: "that one of the bad guys sitting outside his house in a car had a SKS assault rifle? That could easily wound or kill someone "hiding in the house" if they fired it at the home.
I don't have all the answers, aren't we just getting sick and tired of dirt bags like that getting away with anything they want to do (and we just have to take it)????
Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
My last comment on this situation folks and thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
 
Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
My last comment on this situation folks and thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
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The violent crime rate is at historic lows these last few years, and cops are doing much in many areas to curb violence further. Gang violence in my area and all violent crime is down 14% this year. New York City, another area I'm very familiar with, has 45000 cops, and is now safer than almost all urban areas in the country with a population of over 100,000. It is the safest of all major cities in the US, and ranks somewhere near San Jose, California as far as violent crime. Look at data on violent crime over periods back to the 19th century, and the numbers continually decrease in their general direction, markedly decrease.

The remarks about crime like the above quoted produce a predispostion towards BIG mistakes in SD situations.

We had a case in my area of new CCW who got into a road-argument with a minority in mid-afternoon at a mall - shouting etc. Both were about to park and had stopped or slowed to a crawl. The minority got our of his car and walked towards the CCWs car, both arguing. CCW pulled his gun and shot the "threat", killed him.

There was no "threat", just an argument, no weapon displayed by the victim or possessed by the victim, whose pregnant wife watched from their car as her husband - a professional man - was killed in a routine shopping trip to the mall over a parking-space.

CCW is in prison. But 4 lives - probably more - are destroyed, and one literally. This was an act caused by stero-type, of all kinds: of people, of crime, etc., and its consequent irrational fear and altered judgment.

Better get the facts right. And act on only those: what is really happening NOW. Forget all the bias and predisposition, all the opinions, societal judgments, all the political, self-righteous, victimhood claptrap.
 
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Taken from the Lectric law library


LYING IN WAIT - Being in ambush for the purpose of murdering or harming another. A waiting and watching for an opportune time to act, together with a concealment by ambush or some other secret design to take the other person by surprise. The lying in wait need not continue for any particular period of time provided that its duration is such as to show a state of mind equivalent to premeditation or deliberation.

Lying in wait is evidence of deliberation, malice and intention and so is often used as a special circumstance to enhance sentencing in criminal cases.

Pretty much says it.
That said I am very glad to hear that you and your family are none the worse for wear. I know from personal experiance that shootings can take a very long time to get over if ever.
No one died, it was a good ending, Period.
 
By the way, since when is defending yourself and/or family considered breaking the law?
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You certainly MAY defend yourself and family, but you must do it within the law. There are times the law allows you to shoot and times it doesn't. Of course, you CAN step outside the law, but if you do, you open yourself to the same legal process your assailants will undergo. You and your family may be separated for a while, and/or incur total financial ruin. As RESPONSIBLE gun-carrying/using citizens, we walk a fine line.

Defend, yes, but do it legally.
 
it sounds likes you were looking for a fight
in virginia open carry is legal

when you said they took all your guns makes me want to hide some of mine
a pistol in a ziplock bag in the AC vent
inside of fridge or freezer if you dont have kids
 
1) The local cops are known for being PITAs. I've had a couple of runins. Some are good guys but a lot of them are real jerks.
2) All of us who live here know the situation hasn't improved. Every day there are a couple of stories of thugs shooting each other. The area in Va Beach and lower Newport News is in serious decline.
3) You came away unharmed and your family is unharmed. You accomplished your objectives.

Could it have been done better? Probably. Nobody's perfect. Could you have avoided a lot of grief by walking your wife out of the original argument and sat comfortably in your home with a gun and phone? Probably. Was sitting in ambush with your drunk neighbor who got you in trouble by shooting at a retreating vehicle not the best idea - the drunk neighbor with the ND part, I mean - ? Probably. I object more to the drunk neighbor with a gun shooting at a retreating vehicle more than the ambush. If he hadn't taken the bad shot you wouldn't have been in as much trouble.
Live and learn... but first you gotta live.
Stay safe. Glad you're okay.
 
Thanks for sharing your story. I have no idea what I would have done in your situation, so I refrain from trying to tell you what you did right or wrong. But one more lesson that I learned from your example is to always have a spare firearm that you DON'T give to the police when they want to confiscate all your guns while you're still in danger:eek:
 
2 things i find frightening:

You hid and waited for them to return

and

After it was over, you seem convinced that you should have taken him out when you had the chance.


People talk about armchair quarterbacking, but i definitely know what i WOULDNT have done: walked out with a gun/shotgun and laid in wait, and especially run up to someone in a car and point my gun at them.

Im as sure about that as i am sure that i wouldnt have stopped to make myself an omelet.
 
What if you sit by an upstairs bedroom window, tactical rifle of choice by your side not pointing out,and look out the window. Does that constitute 'stalking' ?

Are some of you saying that you should leave your house and say go to a motel because you don't feel safe? Is that really the best way to handle this?

Difficult situation,
 
What if you sit by an upstairs bedroom window, tactical rifle of choice by your side not pointing out,and look out the window. Does that constitute 'stalking' ?
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It would not be stalking... stalking is completely different. Well, unless you're looking out the window to eyeball your neighbor, that is.

I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to keep a look out for trouble if you had a credible reason to expect it. The actions you take if trouble shows up are likely going to have a big influence on the potential difficulties you'll face after the incident is over, though. I believe that gunning them down from the window as they pull up in their cars or try to cross your lawn will be severely frowned upon in many jurisdictions.

Are some of you saying that you should leave your house and say go to a motel because you don't feel safe? Is that really the best way to handle this?
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Any solution that ends up with you and your family alive and not in prison is a passable one. Different people have different priorities and will likely use different methods to arrive at such an outcome. Some people will stand and fight for their homes, some people will prefer to abandon their homes in search of greater safety, and yet others would have just let the gang member smack their wife and neighbor around because they wanted to avoid conflict altogether (I hope none of the latter category are on this forum, but such people most definitely exist).
 
Divemedic,

I too lived in VB at the same time as you while serving in the Navy at Dam Neck, 1988-92. Lived near Witchduck Rd. and the Lynnhaven Mall. Pretty much the same situation that happened to you happened to us as well.

We moved into a new Condo type development as a E-5 with dozens of Military family's around us initially. As people were reassigned and moved away alot of the houses didn't sell and were turned into rentals or section 8 housing. We had two apartment complexes on either side of our development that were already seedy places to be after the sun went down and things just spilled over into our neighborhood as the gangs fought it out.

As the crime level increased and the nightly gun shots went off, I started carrying at all times. We built a 6 foot tall privacy fence around the back and side yards as a buffer, and did the same with our immediate neighbors yards as well.

Same sort of scenario developed out front of my home one afternoon, wife came home from work and the neighbor to the left side and the two from across the street were arguing with a thug from the apartments out back. Seems the thug was trying to tear down a section of fence along the side yard that was installed as a utilities easement there by closing off a short cut through our neighborhood into the apartments behind us. My wife (ex now) was trying to mediate the situation and not getting anywhere when I pulled into the driveway.

The Thug at that point tried to take out one of the neighbors with his ball bat that he had been using to destroy the fence with and was chasing my wife away from the downed neighbor when I rounded the corner. Big mistake! He never even saw me coming as I cracked him on the collar bone with the barrel of my .357. He dropped the bat and sat there crying like a baby as I tied his hands up with my belt and had one of the other two neighbor's call the police.

Subsequent 15 minute wait for the police and the ambulance arrived for the downed neighbor. During the making room for the paramedics shuffle of people the Thug takes off running, screaming it's a gang thing and he'll be back with his posse.

Police show up finally and take statements and say they'll check out the apartments during the night and off they go. Downed neighbor has concussion and is off to the hospital. My wife goes off to get his wife from work and take her to the hospital.

The remaining neighbors and I agree to watch out for each other for the next few days. Didn't take but 4 hours for the gang to show up and flash bang the neighbors house (concussion guy's) thank god they were still at the hospital, guess they thought that's where I lived. I had taken the kids and picked up my wife from the hospital and we were out to dinner when that happened. VB Police paged me and advised me not to return home. Great..
 
So wife is scared and won't go home not that I really wanted to take them there anyway so we spend a few nights with friends and finally go home a few days later.

Next morning one of the neighbors across the street's wife gets carjacked in her driveway while loading the kids up for school. Her and the kids weren't hurt but they were told it was in retaliation for what had happend just days previously. That's it my wife's on the phone to her Mom and her and the kids are on a plane to Phoenix before noon, and I spend a couple more nights on our friends couch as a precaution.

Go home and the house has been ransacked, called VB police they make another report and more promises to drive by, Do I have any guns in the house as they want to confiscate them so that I don't escalate the situation, :mad: I lied and told them they were all stolen when they broke into the house, ok, ok, make sure to call us if they come back! :mad: and off they go!!

Fortunately my guns were all at my friends house less my .357 ;) which was between the seats in my car. Used my Neighbors phone (concussion guy) to call and get the Insurance agent out and make an appointment with a Realtor.

Showed up 2 days later to meet the Insurance agent and the Realtor with about 15 of my armed to the teeth friends and a moving truck :D. We posted a guard around the house and yard and I finished all of my business with the above mentioned professionals and packed up what ever wasn't broken and left.

I canceled my paperwork to re-up after 12 years and started looking for a job. Found a nice one in Arizona and have been here since. The really sad thing was about a week after I listed the house and moved they killed concussion guy in his driveway when he got home from work. :mad:

Tactics wise our house and yard weren't really defensible unless we stayed inside, and I suspect that might be the case in most suburban settings. That wouldn't have proved wise since they had access to flash bang grenades and who knew what else. And yes SKS's were extreemely popular and cheap there then.

That would not be the situation on the ranch now. You can't get anywhere near my place that I or the animals don't see you coming for at least 1/4 mile before you pull up in front of the house. Friends call first before coming over and everyone else gets stopped in their car by my really big dog fluffy and me on the front porch.
 
I think the Republic of Texas has a better idea...
I have no advise.
Could be,I need to let the system handle it till I reach the point that nothing else matters.Once,I stuffed my 97 full of #4 buck with the idea that whatever happened to me didn't matter so long as my wife and daughter were OK.No need to tell the story,it didn't go that far.I was understood,and believed.

In testimony that what is right doesn't matter,my town late 90's a young man was jumped by four young men.He ran.They caught him,had him down,and were kicking the crap out of him.He pulled his Buck folding hunter and killed one.He got 5 years.Our DA said "You brought a knife to a fist fight"
I wonder,if this DA had 4 guys knock her to the ground and begin kicking her if she would feel justified in pulling a Smith out of her purse and shooting till it was over.
See,we are supposed to be sensitive to the idea these poor little gang bangers can be saved by the public school system if we are sensitive and patient enough.You failed to be politically correct,and sometimes,that will cost a lot.But,maybe if you had done anything different,somebody would be dead.
 
Former Navy myself (TM3/SS). You did as good as you could, no one should have the expectation of any better or different. Glad you're here to tell your story. One real life experience shared is equal to 10,000 "well, what if this , or that." I Lived in Charleston SC while in the Navy and had some experiences with thugs, but nothing like this. I've been a cop now since being HONORABLY discharged in 1975. The justice system SUCKS, especially for the law abidding citizens.:(:(
 
For goodness sakes, lay off him already. Where you there, was it your families life at risk?? :mad:

Nothing is quite as offensive than Monday morning quaterbacking a situation like this. While I respect LEO's and appreciate the hard job they have, I do not expect them to be there to protect or to save me from danger. That is my job, because I am always there and armed.

I live in a quiet burg close to Dallas (I long to move to the mountains :D), but that will not happen until I retire or when the SHTF. So far, the gang bangers and other low life scum (meth heads, etc,.) have not moved here because the county LEO's have a very tough redneck reputation and carry .45 ACP's on their hips. To date, that has helped keep undesirables out of my little hamlet.

Since Texas has adopted the castle doctrine plus my CHL, I feel a little safer.

divemedic,

Stop explaining already, you did the only thing you could do. The best defense is a good offense.

Everybody has an opinion. Mine may stink and be offensive, but it's still my opinion
 
- The worry about pulling the trigger and what it will do to your life. Not only the hesitation at taking a life, but the hesitation at whether or not it is going to be a "good shoot" and going to jail.
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No matter how we hope to "do the right thing" when faced with the ultimate horror of kill or suffer killing, that worry will always be there. I can only hope that, God forbid, if I'm faced with that choice, that worry lasts a tenth of a second, no more. But, even a good shoot produces a life completely changed more times than not. I'm very sorry you had to move, but under the circumstances, I certainly understand. We, in this neighborhood, have had to "take our streets back" from miscreants bent on taking over more than once, though not quite to the level of your experience, and I won't elaborate on it here. Suffice to say all we've done is to prolong the house values for a time and our area remains quiet and, for the most part, still desireable. Hopefully it stays that way for a few years, until I can once again get a decent price for my house, and leave on MY OWN terms. And, here's hoping you never have to be put in a similar situation again. All the best.
 
Prosecution negligence...

Personally I am astounded that you dropped the charges against the gangbangers in the first place. Second, it seems that you must have had either Larry, Moe, and Curley prosecuting those thugs or the DA's office had a serious case of sympathy for the devil. Tough situation. Seems like you almost have to let one of them take a shot at you before you can kill the lot of them...
 
Couple Questions...

Very sorry that you had to go through this, and I'm thankful you're willing to share so we all can learn. It has been an interesting discussion. I'm a newbie to it all (firearms and SD) and am not trying to be judgemental or say anything about what transpired, only understand better.

During the first incident, was the thug just holding the weapon, or taunting/threatening with it? Of course, even if he was just holding it, that could change in an instant. Did he advance when others backed away?

When you knew they'd be back and waited outside for them, you've said that that was to keep any conflicts outside, away from your family. Was there enough time where you could have had your wife and children leave while you monitored the situation? I understand not wanting to completely leave your home, but would this have helped you defend better? With an empty home, would you choose the same course of action?
 
skydiver3346 said:
Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
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And here in lies the problem. Which one of these crowds do the lawyers make their money from?

What are most of our elected officials before being elected? Lawyers!!!!

They are not going to put themselves out of business, you can bank on that!

All of their twisted laws are just job security as they convert law abiding citizens into criminals with laws the average citizen will never be able to abide by 100% of the time.

Not to get off topic here, but on topic with my reply, I recently visited some friends in Tennessee. None of which are carry conceal holders. I had to do some internet research on the TN CC laws. I was disappointed to find out I could not carry my weapon into a restaurant that serves alcohol, even though I do not drink and it is not a bar. (In KY you can). So I had a decision to make, (all the while thinking about the Luby's TX incident) do I abide by the law and leave my gun in the car, or carry it in, knowing no one will ever know I am carrying it. I opted to obey the law, even though I have very strong opposition to it. I would have never forgiven myself if something would of happened that day to my family.
 
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