Aftermath of a shooting (my story)

Wait inside for them, and thereby give the tactical advantage to the shooters, while hoping that the 10 minute response time of the cops is good enough?

If you wait inside, the tactical advantage is yours. They don't know where you are or what you're armed with.

If several calls ar made to 911, saying, "Man with a gun." Or, "Shots fired." Will bring every cop in 5 miles running Code 3 to get there.

Usually you canNOT "lay in wait." That makes it premeditated and/or "trap setting". As a CWP holder, you may NOT advance or attack. Your duty to the law is to DEFEND and, if possible, retreat to a safe place. Now, in SC, there is no "obligation to retreat". You may stand your ground. You also have no obligation to retreat from the boundaries of your property, which include whatever vehicle you're riding in at the time.

All that being said, it's easy to second guess the poster's actions while sitting calmly in an armchair. All you can do in the field is make the best decision you can at the time, with the information you have at the time.
 
This is an interesting exercise. I am going to give you more information, and let's look at my tactical situation. Go to google maps. If you search for

848 Broad Meadows Blvd
Virginia Beach, VA

You will see that the address is on the corner of Broad Meadows and Newtown Road. A box comes up that allows you to click on "Street View." Click that, and click "Satellite" and you will see the neighborhood. On the street view, my house was the one directly in front of the silver Chrysler. My neighbor lived in the house with the open door. The place looks so much like I remember it, it is stunning. Little has changed.

The street view pic is amazing. That picture gives you a view of the area from roughly the spot where the car load of gang bangers was parked. I was hiding in roughly the spot between where the red Ford and the Silver Chrysler are in the picture.

According to google earth's ruler, it is 35 feet from your vantage point to my front door.

You can see there wasn't much room to keep them at arm's length.
 
Divemedic shared his experience and perspective on what I think we can all agree was a very distressing situation for him, his family and some members of his neighborhood. What I or you or anyone else think [yep,think] we would have done under identical circumstances is speculation and that’s all it will ever be. The after action critique isn't adding anything positive.
Why can’t we just leave it at kudos to him for sharing and be glad no one was injured or killed.
Best,
S-
 
I live in this neck of the woods...and things are no better now, if not worse, than they were then. In fact, gang sign is everywhere here you look here in Virginia Beach. The evening local news is not complete without at least two or three reported shootings here in Virginia Beach and in the rest of the Hampton Roads region. I cant wait to get orders out of here.:(

Glad you made it out okay, dm.
 
The after action critique isn't adding anything positive.
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Actually, it is. By analyzing a person's actions, we can possibly improve on those actions the next time it happens.

For the person to continue with the only knowledge they had at the time is handcuffing him to those same actions - right or wrong.

Discussion generates alternate actions which are possibly better than the ones taken.

We always strive to improve, and we can always learn from others.
 
Thank you for sharing your experience...regardless of the hindsight legality of events I'm glad nobody (you, your family, or the perps) were hurt in this incident.

No telling how many lives have been spared by the sound of an 870 slide!

Here's to hoping NONE of us are faced with these decisions...
 
You were Lucky

divemedic,

Glad you didn't shoot one of those guys. Had you done so you would most probably be in prison now or just getting out. When you left your house and "lay in wait" you cancelled out pretty much any self defense claim. Call the cops, put your family in a covered place and wait for the cavalry. Had I been on a jury that tried you for murder I would have found you guilty and locked you away. You were every lucky.
 
All bluster aside, I feel like I did what anyone would do- when threatened, I drew my weapon and called the cops. The cops did nothing. The gang came looking to kill me, in greater numbers this time. Again, I called the cops and the cops did nothing.
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You definitely need to move, dude!
 
Glad you didn't shoot one of those guys. Had you done so you would most probably be in prison now or just getting out. When you left your house and "lay in wait" you cancelled out pretty much any self defense claim. Call the cops, put your family in a covered place and wait for the cavalry. Had I been on a jury that tried you for murder I would have found you guilty and locked you away. You were every lucky.
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That, IMO, is where our laws are seriously wrong.

1 Gangbangers out on the street after 22 arrests by their 17th birthday.
2 Underage illegally carrying weapons
3 Attack a citizen in his own front yard, not one, but three times- police do nothing (must be busy writing speeding tickets)
4 Citizen defends himself IN HIS OWN FRONT YARD FROM ARMED CRIMINAL has to worry about going to prison
5 Gangstas think prison is a joke, for them prison is a revolving door vacation
6 Other gun owners support this kind of thinking

Am I the only one who sees the problem here?

Edited to add:

This is why I love living in Florida:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
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776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
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(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person's child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
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Using the address you provided above, I can see how exposed you could be by viewing your old house using the "street view" in Google Maps. I panned around and that is not a good place to find cover if there werent any cars in the area for the Block Party to take place.
 
I understand your fear. My immediate thought to your explainations, including legal codes, is:

1) Do gangbangers have the right to self defense ?
2) Do gangbangers have the right to walk, or travel, on public property ?
3) Is sitting in wait, with a loaded weapon, essentially an 'Ambush' ?

If I conclude that a person has the behavior pattern of sitting in ambush with a loaded weapon, is then okay for me to speculate that this poses a very real threat to myself and my family ? If I do conclude this, is it then okay for me to take you out before you can execute your ambush ?
 
1) not when committing a felony.
2) not when committing a felony.
3) not when a party is attempting to kill you. There is no difference between waiting for a party in your yard than there is in waiting for them in your living room. If I were sitting in my yard with just my pistol, would that still be an ambush? Does the self defense law say that I only have the right to self defense with certain weapons?

Again:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
 
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1 Gangbangers out on the street after 22 arrests by their 17th birthday.
2 Underage illegally carrying weapons
3 Attack a citizen in his own front yard, not one, but three times- police do nothing (must be busy writing speeding tickets)
4 Citizen defends himself IN HIS OWN FRONT YARD FROM ARMED CRIMINAL has to worry about going to prison
5 Gangstas think prison is a joke, for them prison is a revolving door vacation
6 Other gun owners support this kind of thinking
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Not my intent to justify the results of our judicial system. Although, I have not seen a better one and I have travelled and lived all over the world.

Many of the points you made above you did not know at the time so it wouldn't have helped your case. Anyway, based on your story you weren't on your own property but in the street. I think even in Florida you would have been sent to prison if you had opened up on those men in your ambush. I think there are some other posts here are worth reading like gvf and keltyke.

Also, if you had killed one or more of them then the gang really would have wanted your blood and you know if somebody wants you dead they will probably get you. What they did later on was just mess with you. Had you killed some of their own then they would have had to "save face" and kill you.

All this because of a guy who yelled and cussed at your wife?:barf: Much better to descalate the situation and leave.

Again, I say you were lucky and if the lesson you learned was that you should have killed any of those gangsters rather than not then you learned a bad lesson and might have to pay for it one day. I hope not.
 
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I still think I was correct. Those here that feel I was wrong, too bad. I lived, my family lived, and anyone who wasn't there, and more importantly sits in his living room planning "what if" scenarios cannot say what they would have done.

As to whether or not what I did was legal, I point out the fact that I was taken to court, and won. 'nuff said. I'm outta this one.
 
Bottom Line: Defending yourself and family

Well,
I have never seen so many varied opinions in all my life. Divemedic told his story and even though none of you was there but him, (years ago) we all give want to give him advice as to "what WE would do", if that happened to us..............

He did what he thought was best and thats it. Maybe it was stupid to some of you (maybe not) but when you get right down to it, that was his call, period!
I'm getting sick and tired of seeing and reading about all these these scum bags running the country. A bad guy can do what he wants and gets away with it. We can't, because we don't want to be incarcerated and have a record. They don't give a rat's ass about a criminal record or being in prison, (obviously). It is time to stand up and tell them enough is enough.
Have you looked around lately, the bad guys are running the country, the courts, etc. Their liberal lawyer's opinions are the law of the land.
Political Corectness is the order of the day. Man, I really am sick of all this crap. It is time to stand up for your rights and do what you think is best for YOUR situation. When and if it happens to you or your family, to hell with what other folks tell you what is "right". Do what is right for you and forget about the court of public opinon............
Yeah, some of you think I may be a little too out of line here, etc. That's okay, I know what I feel is right for me. That's all that counts, when you get right down to it...................
 
If you don't like the bad guys running the country, want tougher prison times, more prosecution ... I suggest you elect representatives that advocate that and vote for spending money, increasing taxes, to pay for it, or stop wasting money in Iraq and start providing that money for our infastructure.

It takes time and money to secure our streets. Are you willing to pay for it ?
 
There seems to be a bit of conflict in this thread, and I am going to give you all my 2 South African cents on the matter.

Some time ago, I posted a thread here about a Johannesburg mall/shopping centre incident in which I discharged a firearm during a sequence of events that resulted in the capture of a thief who had also beaten up one security guard and (as far as I could tell at the time) mortally stabbed another one.

The thread is here if you want to read it:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222887

There are some similarities between what happened there and what happened with divemedic:

1) I never asked to be in that position, but I felt compelled to do something. Unfortunately, because I had not been in that situation before, I had to do things according to my best perception of the situation and the circumstances at hand.
2) That perception and those circumstances can never be fully replicated or described, to the point where you as the reader can confidently say what you would have done in those circumstances. It just isn't going to happen, because you weren't there.


However, when discussing the legalities and tactics of the situation objectively and taking into account only the facts, it is possible for us to have a debate here and arrive at a reasonable conclusion with regards to whether the person (divemedic or me) made any mistakes or put himself or another at greater risk because of his actions. This is all done retrospectively, in the comfort of our armchairs of course.

Nonetheless, as regards my situation in the shop, I accept that I could have handled that better, based on suggestions by TFL members who posted in that thread. There is a chance (not a certainty) that if I am in a similar situation sometime in the future, I will heed that advice and modify my response appropriately. Much will depend on the new circumstances, obviously.

As far as divemedic is concerned, I don't think he should have waited outside the house. I think he did it because that was the best approach he could think of at the time. That was the solution that looked the most viable in those circumstances.

However, in my opinion it will be better (should a similar situation occur again) if divemedic does not come out of the house. There have been clear and rational reasons why it is better not to come out of the house.

Similarly, in my situation, there have been clear and rational reasons why I shouldn't have fired a warning shot and chased an armed thief down a few city blocks. After the stabbing I should have closed the distance and fired COM.
And that's what I should do if it happens again. But it all depends whether I recognise the similarities of the situation and decide to apply the lessons I have learned to minimise risk to myself and others.
 
When and if it happens to you or your family, to hell with what other folks tell you what is "right". Do what is right for you and forget about the court of public opinon............
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No, the only court you'll need to worry about are the criminal/civil ones you will stand in trying to explain why what you did was right. If you don't convince the judge and jury you were "right", you might end up going away from that precious family for a while.

Breaking the law doesn't solve breaking the law.
 
Hey Keltyke: Read you own quote below!

"It is better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6:............

I agree with that for sure, good advice. By the way, since when is defending yourself and/or family considered breaking the law? If that is the case, we are all in deep doo doo.
 
Those here that feel I was wrong, too bad. I lived, my family lived, and anyone who wasn't there, and more importantly sits in his living room planning "what if" scenarios cannot say what they would have done.

As to whether or not what I did was legal, I point out the fact that I was taken to court, and won. 'nuff said.
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The shame of it is, if you had stayed in the house, called the cops and waited for them your family would still be alive and you wouldn't have had to go to court.
Also, this "armchair quarterbacking" charge is incorrect. Many of us including myself have been in situations where if we had chosen to could have escalated them into something bad. Get the emphasis on chosen! As long as I have a choice and divemedic did, I am going away from the problem. That is not just smart but morally correct IMHO. Choosing to "stand your ground" when you could easily and safely leave but rather choose to get into a confrontation where a person may be killed is both wrong and may get you put in prison. Lots of good advice from folks here. Do what you wish but you can't say you weren't warned when you are sitting in court.
 
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