Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Why, thanks - do you remember me from LFI-1 in Dallas. I had a broken left arm when I took the course!
If not, that's fine.
If not, that's fine.
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After the gun fight - your psyche
- Thread starter Glenn E. Meyer
- Start date
pickpocket
New member
I'm reading a some posts that present a kind of: "I would be justified, he would have had it coming, and that's that" attitude.
While "knowing" or acknowledging that you have the capacity to kill someone is a major factor in your ability to respond to a life-threatening situation, it is a far cry from understanding what the psychological responses would be from both you and the people close to you AFTER taking someone's life. And the beauty of it all is that it could hit you the next day or it could hit you 5 years later. But the fact of the matter is that at some point in time you're going to think about it in the lonely hours you have to yourself in the middle of the night, and it's going to change you.
And the truth is, only people who have experienced it know how it's going to change them....it's not something you can predict or even prepare for. Everyone else is completely clueless.
IMHO, there are two distinct topics involved in a discussion like this:
Secondly, you have a split-second to react to a situation, especially one where you must protect yourself or a loved one. However, you have a lifetime to analyze that split-second...and this is where your carefully constructed perception of yourself is picked apart and examined and questioned.
Could you have made decisions earlier in the day that would have precluded the situation, could you have said something, could you have reacted differently.
It is only after things have a chance to sink in that you realize exactly how much danger you were in...and how much danger those close to you were in. It is only after things have a chance to sink in that you begin to question your training choices and priorities, or lack thereof. It is only after the reality of having ended someone's life sinks in and you are thanking God for the chance to hug your wife and kids again that you realize that - whether or not he/she deserved it - the person you killed was someone's son, daughter, husband, wife, friend, lover, father, mother. Whether or not the killing was justified, you will realize that there is another incomplete family in the world now...and you contributed to that. Legal justification and self-defense theory pale and dissapate for a moment while you digest those facts. Then they go away for a while after you remind yourself that you did what you had to do. But they'll come back...many times. The feelings will come back at the oddest times...watching tv, listening to the radio, washing dishes.
Personally, after coming back from Iraq it took about 9 months for me to start going through some of this. I find myself getting emotional about the dumbest stuff... songs on the radio, commercials with little kids, whatever...just dumb stuff that would have never have had this effect on me before.
The people we killed had it coming. They put themselves in a situation where there could only be one of us that walked away alive. They brought our violence upon themselves by threatening our lives. Our killings were justified. I have no regrets, no questions, no reservations. And I would do it again. I reacted honorably under fire, which is a question all of us have of ourselves until it is answered in absolute terms. But that's not where it stops. The fight is reactionary...no time to think. The thinking comes later.
And you know what? At the end of the day, the people we killed were fathers, husbands, sons, daughters, mothers, and wives. The people we killed had hopes, desires, loves, and hates. Their blood was red. The look in their eyes as some lay dying was unmistakeably and hauntingly familiar. I would do it again, without hesitation...but you don't go through something like that and not carry it with you, not have it change you...the universe won't allow it.
Those who have killed and say they feel no remorse, or say that they do not question themselves as they lay silent in the dark, or say that they are not thankful as they hug their children... those people are either lying to themselves or they are much harder men than I am.
Me? I don't talk to my family about it because they wouldn't understand. I don't want my kids to have to share that knowledge yet. My wife definitely wouldn't understand...so unfortunately I can't speak to how loved ones would react. I can only say that it changes you... and it's inevitable that it also changes all who witness it..each in their own way.
While "knowing" or acknowledging that you have the capacity to kill someone is a major factor in your ability to respond to a life-threatening situation, it is a far cry from understanding what the psychological responses would be from both you and the people close to you AFTER taking someone's life. And the beauty of it all is that it could hit you the next day or it could hit you 5 years later. But the fact of the matter is that at some point in time you're going to think about it in the lonely hours you have to yourself in the middle of the night, and it's going to change you.
And the truth is, only people who have experienced it know how it's going to change them....it's not something you can predict or even prepare for. Everyone else is completely clueless.
IMHO, there are two distinct topics involved in a discussion like this:
- How we will react (or think we'll react) to a life-threatening situation
- How we will react to our reaction.
Secondly, you have a split-second to react to a situation, especially one where you must protect yourself or a loved one. However, you have a lifetime to analyze that split-second...and this is where your carefully constructed perception of yourself is picked apart and examined and questioned.
Could you have made decisions earlier in the day that would have precluded the situation, could you have said something, could you have reacted differently.
It is only after things have a chance to sink in that you realize exactly how much danger you were in...and how much danger those close to you were in. It is only after things have a chance to sink in that you begin to question your training choices and priorities, or lack thereof. It is only after the reality of having ended someone's life sinks in and you are thanking God for the chance to hug your wife and kids again that you realize that - whether or not he/she deserved it - the person you killed was someone's son, daughter, husband, wife, friend, lover, father, mother. Whether or not the killing was justified, you will realize that there is another incomplete family in the world now...and you contributed to that. Legal justification and self-defense theory pale and dissapate for a moment while you digest those facts. Then they go away for a while after you remind yourself that you did what you had to do. But they'll come back...many times. The feelings will come back at the oddest times...watching tv, listening to the radio, washing dishes.
Personally, after coming back from Iraq it took about 9 months for me to start going through some of this. I find myself getting emotional about the dumbest stuff... songs on the radio, commercials with little kids, whatever...just dumb stuff that would have never have had this effect on me before.
The people we killed had it coming. They put themselves in a situation where there could only be one of us that walked away alive. They brought our violence upon themselves by threatening our lives. Our killings were justified. I have no regrets, no questions, no reservations. And I would do it again. I reacted honorably under fire, which is a question all of us have of ourselves until it is answered in absolute terms. But that's not where it stops. The fight is reactionary...no time to think. The thinking comes later.
And you know what? At the end of the day, the people we killed were fathers, husbands, sons, daughters, mothers, and wives. The people we killed had hopes, desires, loves, and hates. Their blood was red. The look in their eyes as some lay dying was unmistakeably and hauntingly familiar. I would do it again, without hesitation...but you don't go through something like that and not carry it with you, not have it change you...the universe won't allow it.
Those who have killed and say they feel no remorse, or say that they do not question themselves as they lay silent in the dark, or say that they are not thankful as they hug their children... those people are either lying to themselves or they are much harder men than I am.
Me? I don't talk to my family about it because they wouldn't understand. I don't want my kids to have to share that knowledge yet. My wife definitely wouldn't understand...so unfortunately I can't speak to how loved ones would react. I can only say that it changes you... and it's inevitable that it also changes all who witness it..each in their own way.
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
I am really impressed with a lot of the replies here. This subject was discussed here about a year ago, with the result being a lot of chest thumping and testosterone flowing, and little serious insight. I'm really glad to see that this thread is presenting some serious, soul-searching thoughts.
Let's face it; in our culture, we're bombarded from the day the doc spanks our behinds with the idea that killing people is wrong. It's reinforced almost daily in our churches, schools, literature, media, and even our daily conversations, and although a lot of that conditioning is subtle, it has its effect.
Not pretending to be a psychologist here, but I believe the problem is that sometimes nasty little gremlin we call our subconscious. We really are of two minds, that usually co-exist peacefully, until our conscious minds try to override what our subconscious has been programmed with over the years. That's when the problems start.
You're faced with a kill-or-be-killed situation, and your conscious mind is screaming "shoot!". But if you haven't previously convinced your subconscious of the need and justification, it's going to be screaming back "No no no no don't shoot! It's wrong!" Result? Hesitation, or even complete freeze up.
Now I believe we can train the subconscious to override this previous programming through education, serious training, and of course, a lot of serious meditation over the matter before it happens, so that we can react to save our lives. That, in essence, is what the military strives to do in boot camp, and in advanced training.
However, the subconscious mind is a powerful entity, and the dregs of that life long conditioning will remain, whether you're actually aware of it, or not. When you choose to override that conditioning during a critical incident, your subconscious will later protest, and that can take the form of nightmares, flashbacks, insomnia, depression, and a whole host of other symptoms.
There is absolutely nothing "unmanly" about it. Freezing up when action is called for is the natural reaction to our two minds arguing. That can be overcome, as I said, by training, which is also a form of conditioning. Afterward, however, you can no more predict what sort of protest your subconscious is going to lodge, than you can predict the thoughts of another person on the same subject.
Given that NO one has total mastery over their subconscious minds, I think it's safe to say that a. You WILL have reactions to a critical incident, and b. you CANNOT predict what those reactions will be.
Let's face it; in our culture, we're bombarded from the day the doc spanks our behinds with the idea that killing people is wrong. It's reinforced almost daily in our churches, schools, literature, media, and even our daily conversations, and although a lot of that conditioning is subtle, it has its effect.
Not pretending to be a psychologist here, but I believe the problem is that sometimes nasty little gremlin we call our subconscious. We really are of two minds, that usually co-exist peacefully, until our conscious minds try to override what our subconscious has been programmed with over the years. That's when the problems start.
You're faced with a kill-or-be-killed situation, and your conscious mind is screaming "shoot!". But if you haven't previously convinced your subconscious of the need and justification, it's going to be screaming back "No no no no don't shoot! It's wrong!" Result? Hesitation, or even complete freeze up.
Now I believe we can train the subconscious to override this previous programming through education, serious training, and of course, a lot of serious meditation over the matter before it happens, so that we can react to save our lives. That, in essence, is what the military strives to do in boot camp, and in advanced training.
However, the subconscious mind is a powerful entity, and the dregs of that life long conditioning will remain, whether you're actually aware of it, or not. When you choose to override that conditioning during a critical incident, your subconscious will later protest, and that can take the form of nightmares, flashbacks, insomnia, depression, and a whole host of other symptoms.
There is absolutely nothing "unmanly" about it. Freezing up when action is called for is the natural reaction to our two minds arguing. That can be overcome, as I said, by training, which is also a form of conditioning. Afterward, however, you can no more predict what sort of protest your subconscious is going to lodge, than you can predict the thoughts of another person on the same subject.
Given that NO one has total mastery over their subconscious minds, I think it's safe to say that a. You WILL have reactions to a critical incident, and b. you CANNOT predict what those reactions will be.